DaveM joined. Doc_K joined. Joe_K joined. Joe_K left. az joined. swetz joined. swetz ::ninja ::smile Amos joined. Amos Hi Art joined. swetz Hi Amos :) carnac joined. Art hi everyone swetz hi Art :) az Hi Amos az Hi Swetz swetz aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ::smile az :) Amos Tuesday supposed to be a good day because that is when G-d said TWICE " Ki Tov" swetz it was good for me, at least so far az Is Gary coming tonight too Amos? Doc_K hello all az Hi Doc swetz howdy DocK - the king of NG :) Peter Hi Amos & everyone az Hey Peter swetz hi Peter :) Peter hi AZ & Swetz joel joined. Amos Gary is in baseball tonight joel hi all Jeff joined. swetz howdy partner :) az Hey Joel!!! swetz hi Jeff :) Jeff hey hey, Ge all az k, thks Amos Doc_K stoped out 2 different times today trying for bottom third is the charm Doc_K swetz Jeff what in doc? swetz yeah, maybe 3rd time is the charm :) Amos I hope I don't get bumped so many times as last time Doc_K ng Jeff got ya az Hey Doc, those hurricanes are coming Amos I see a small crowd--the cream floats to the top? warren joined. swetz I like to think so Amos :) sk joined. swetz howdy warren and sk az privleged to have you here Amos swetz and carnac Amos Ok I will start slowly carnac wanna buy bump insurance? warren hey swetz and all az Hey Warren Amos Let's look at the first chart I sent which is Dollar Index weekly swetz lol carnac Rich joined. warren az! az k, dollar weekly Doc_K y Amos Please understand that I am NOT looking at the charts to find tmw's trade-- but in order to LEARN SOMETHING about the chart, myself, psychology and stuff carnac descending supply tl. Kelley joined. Doc_K ok Amos I am more interested in the PAST part of the chart than the future! kent joined. az Hey Kent! Amos Only those who know and understand the past-- can benefit in the future. (Bill Gates and Steven Jobs excluded) kent AZ !!! Amos There is no doubt that this is a DECLINING chart. Amos Aside from a VERY SHARP and STONG decline from 90 to 85 in April last year--this is a very docile and slow chart az packs a punch in other markets though Amos Slow charts tend to try man's soul and cause him/ her to do bad things Peter a large TR 82-92.50 Larry joined. Amos We tend to see springs, valleys, thrusts that do not exist Amos but let us accept those weaknesses and try to sift thru Amos first declin stopped at 82.5 carnac descending supply tl. also poss. bear flag in downtrend. Amos next one stopped at 80 and everyone is talking how 80 is HISTORICAL LOW that should hold and the rally to 85 looks vigorous enough to possibly call it a weeklyl "spring?" Amos it stopped at 85 and stayed there for several weeks. Amos It is true that the weekly downtrendline is holding like a rock-- but I have grown very leery (leary?) of very obvious trendlines because EVERYONE sees them Amos but... It worked and the market turned down and rather slowly and methodically continued to "test" the 80. Amos One very important rule in trading is that if the market comes rather slowly to a very obvious point of support or resistance---Don't try to buck it! Amos It is like the cliche of "Do not sell a crawling market" Amos Main reason is that the forces that move the market-- the CM if you wish-- KNOW THIS and are VERY CONFIDENT about what they are doing-- Standing in front of them is almost a SURE LOSS Amos So the dollar comes down back to 80 and stays there for 4 weeks carnac fundie justification-if crude advances to new highs. inflationary. us raises int rates that strenghtens dx. hugh joined. swetz Amos - so you mean, if a slow test of an obvious support, we should be leary of it and not buy it? Amos Here is a very good advice for the future-- whenever market comes to a "SURE FIRE" point of support or resistance Amos DO NOT TRY TO GUESS THE TURN AROUND BUT WAIT FOR A SIGNIFICANT THRUST Amos That will save you many losses and will leave you with fresh, UNWOUNDED mind for the next move Amos I cannot over emphsize this point swetz I understand now - thx Amos :) Amos If you try to pick a corner-- you will eventually get wounded enough mentally that will NOT ALLOW YOU TO STAY with the trend once it starts. Amos So the Dollar breaks the bottom of 80 and does it for 3-4 weeks and them there is a little SOT on the weekly and a small KR on the weekly which is followed by a WEEKLY THRUST Doc_K me and NG today Amos Pay attention that the climb above 80 is NOT SO SHARP as was the last ascent from 80 to 85. Amos The LESS OBVIOUS the move-- many times it is a better one Amos Of course you need a lot of patience-- and this is very hard to purchase lately Jerry joined. swetz hi Jerry, we are looking at weekly dollar chart Jerry GE Everyone ::smile Jerry swets ::smi;e swetz ::smoke Kelley I dint see a break of 89 on this weeklt chart Kelley dont joel left. Kelley 80, sorry az I don't think it is on this chart Kelley, it was in 2003 Kelley ahh.. ok Az, ty Amos left. Amos joined. swetz welcome back Amos :) sk hi swetz, sorry delayed Peter the low was Dec 2004, 80.48 Amos I hoped this will NOT happen today Joe_K joined. swetz no sweat sk :) Kelley ty Peter swetz hi Joe, we are on the weekly dollar chart Amos Any way the daily chart is another exercise in patience and how to arrest one's imagination swetz neare the end Joe_K ok, TY swetz :) Amos Look carefully at this chart. Gaze at it Amos You can see that trading range with some volatility during the March area Amos you can see a sort of tripple bottom that was broken and for about 12 days drove the market hard down. Amos The end of April saw a few days with Larger range (remember that there is NO volume on an index!) so the volume is probably taken from the future contract Amos But the volume does not say much, unfortunately Amos at any rate the market starts to rally ever so slowly. Amos You can see that DEMAND IS NOT RUSHING ANYWHERE Amos but the market breaks the LAST HIGH before the LOW-- this is an IMPORTANT CONCEPT FOR LONG TERM TRADING and after it goes above 8200-- it sarts making HIGHER LOWS Amos Also something else changed-- the Symmetry Amos Until May the dollar was spending more days goning DOWN than on days going UP. Now it starts spending more days going up than down. EVEN THO the DOWN DAYS are SHARP AND FRIGHTENING Alvin joined. Amos Comes June and we start with DELINE. From the OPENING RASNGE MODEL point of view-- the market takes out the LOW OF THE FIRST DAY OF JUNE and gives a "SELL SIGNAL" for the month. Amos It HOLDS a HIGHER LOW and VERY STRONGLY TURNS AROUNE and makes a HIGHER HIGH for the SWING MOVE! Amos NOW I AM GETTING INTERESTED Amos Market has done something that is NOB BEARISH Amos So I draw an important line (or so I think) Amos THis is now waking up the Wyckoff in me Amos I start thinking: What if the range of end of march is sort of Preliminary support...what if the decline to end of April is a SC and what if we are now in a sort of Automatic Rally? Peter if you look at Jan 05, (March Daily) the same steps and initial TRs Amos Nothing of these is CLASSICAL WYCKOFF--but my mind is tempting me Amos Besides I have noticed in the last few years that some Automatic rallies take MUCH LONGER than the classical wyckoff-- don't ask me why Amos So the market runs to the LAST CREEK which is the point it broke from the range of begining of April and stops there Amos Now it starts to correct Amos and I am asking myself-- is this a JUMP AND BACK over the high of MAY? Amos I am running in front of you my real thinking about this market and how I am trying to trade it-- You be the judge if this is good trading technique or not! Amos So I am looking at the horizontal line I drew and I think this is SIGNIFICANT! Amos Today it BROKE BELOW THAT LINE Amos Breaking a little below or above significant horizonatl lines-- is NOT SO CRUCIAL Amos but the CONCEPT IS. Amos At any rate -- I am trying to show you how my WYCKOFF mind is DRAWING, LURING, TEMPTING me to look at the market a certain way-- and sometimes it is good and sometimes it is very bad. Amos BECUASE I AM FORCING MY VIEW ON THE MARKET! Amos I DECIDE WHICH SEQUNECE OF EVENTS SHOULD TAKE PLACE. Amos This, in general-- is not good Amos So what is the answer? az don't you have to force your mind on the market in order to take a position sometimes? Amos For me, from a pure trading point of view-- it is rather simple-- The MINIMUM PROOF that we indeed may have a JUMP AND BACK MODEL IS A DAILY THRUST Amos yes az, that is exactly what i am trying to cope with here Amos This is the MINIMUM that I require from the market to save me from making a bad mistake Amos Sometimes the DAILY THRUST IS NOT ENOUGH Amos Perhaps it is safer to wait for a HIGHER WEEKLY HIGH before going long the dollar here Amos If you are long from the thrust of the Beginning of MAY-- you have no problm. The Place where you are wrong is if the dollar makes a lower low on the DAILY SWING which is the low of the third day of June Amos If you want to be long here-- and you believe this jump and back- you need to wait for a daily thrust Peter a gradual retest of 82 - 82.20 should be safe or a jump of 83.30, then a backup to that support level, once established SDW joined. Amos Peter-- that is good point Amos What if I am wrong and this is just another rally in a bear market and one should be short? Amos Can you give me a BEARISH ARGUMENT FOR THIS CHART? Joe_Kl joined. swetz hard to make a bearish arguement on daily chart but there is one on the weekly chart Amos VERY NICE ANSWER Swetz Bob joined. Peter a break of 80 ice would be bearish, but until that happens you must assume 80-82 will hold Doc_K on weekly have h&s formation2005 and first 2006 Amos Another bullish argument for the daily chart is that since the low we have had only 2-3 days correction-- but here in the current corner-- we are already into the 5th day of correction- from a higher level-- but 5 days nonetheless Amos At any rate -- this is a VERY CRUCIAL CORNER for me Amos I think that the fate of the dollar here-- will affect many other markets---and that is why I spend a lot of energy on it Amos The difference between a swing position and a scalp is OBVIOUS Amos Because I want to be long the dollar-- I was looking all day long to short the BP and the EUro-- but the market was resilient and I DID NOT TOUCH THEM! Amos In the next few days-- watching the behavior of the DOLLAR INDEX IS IMPORTANT. Amos Next chart is DJR QWUARTERLY swetz Amos - quick question please Amos go ahead swetz, ask without introduction Joe_K left. swetz if the DX trades above today's high but shows a lack of upside movement(narrow range and weak close) swetz wouldnt that maybe be an indication that the backup to creek will fail swetz and the bearish weekly chart is still in effect? Amos If you buy a daily thrust your stop is below the last low and any other argument is futile Amos My whole point is that waiting for a higher daily entry for long position is the cheapest way to trade this right now swetz I understand, thx Amos :) Amos The DJR quarterly chart is one of my biggest weaknesses Amos I have no tools to cope with such HUGE V BOTTOM that just turns around and goes one way without testing or cause building or whatever Amos When this happens-- I get hurt because it defies my "logic" and one of the thing i am trying to harp on your minds since I came here - that such things happen in markets every few years-- and the biggest trick is to AVOID LARGE LOSSES. John left. John joined. Amos This is not WYCKOFF , not anything-- it is a MONEY GAME by forces that can do such things to the market-- and when this phase ends-- markets go back to more normal battle of supply and demand Amos The WORST PART OF SUCH a move is that YOU can't help imagining a REVERSAL of MAJOR proportions (a V TOP if you wish) and you wait for it every day. Amos Well-- here again the "SAVIOR" is the thrust. Amos As long as the market is making higher lows-- you SHOULD NOT BE SHORT! Amos This is EASIER SAID THAN DONE! Amos But this is the REAL TRUTH for survival swetz I LOVE your statement Amos - SO TRUE ! ! ! ! swetz :) Amos You can see that I am trying to "decipher" this enigma to see if there are signals in the market (THere always are in RETROSPECT!!!!) Amos So I am looking for the 50% secret message. I mentioned it last time in the dow. We are not far from that magic 13800 points on the dow-- but that is neither here nor there Amos we are in quarter number 17. We are in NO MAN's LAND. anyone who thinks he knows where she stops is a fool Amos But I tend to LURE MYSELF to search for such a top--so go to the next chart which is the weekly Amos The weekly has some story to it Amos The wild action of december 2006 and Jan-feb of 2007 is interesting Jerry TSAASF meeting I went to today, TSAA’s Jim Forte is predicting a bull market up to 2009 then a bear market. I forgot the papers from the meeting on the train. Bob is it possible for one to create a mechanical signal to be out of market? Amos There was a 2 weeks sharp reversal that held the lows of January and formed a "double bottom" on the chart Jerry They may be made available in PDF form at a later date. Amos This is hindsight --but it looks rather clear from afar. Joe_Kl Jerry I could see that possible we should be in the stretch if 1380 was Pre Supply in SP Amos If I consider the BOTTOM of that double bottom as a significant support and I am guessing that is may be half way then you can see where the projection goes-- near 2800 Jerry The prediction is 18500 Joe_Kl Which market ? Amos At any rate we had an outside Key reversal 2 weeks ago and we are testing the high of that OKR Jerry DJ Joe_Kl k Amos The trend is DEFINITELY UP-- but we have a local DOUBLE TOP on the daily and weekly-- and The market so far is respecting it-- If we break above it-- most likely we go another 100 points or so higher. Bob by that time jerry.. china will own america.. lol Amos I mentioned last time that we have spent half of 2007 going up and the market tends to reast after a while Jerry Don't laugh they own the west coast now.LOL Jerry There's a billion of'em and they all want to come here. Amos If I am looking at the weekly chart and i want to go short-- then again from a model point of view-- the only correct place to try a short is after a WEEKLY or, at least a DAILY THRUST Amos When the market is leaning strongly in one direction-- such trials will fail most of the time-- but at least they guard you from making blind mistakes Amos One of the hardest things about this chart is the way it made the weekly low in April last year-- this is painful lesson Amos If you called the high of last year a sort of BC and followed by SHARP CLASSICAL AR-- then you are TOAST! ( I WAS!) Amos because the market comes out of that "AR" in a rather slow fashion and tempts you to think this is a CLASSICAL SECONDARY TEST. Amos This is one curse of following models-- if you are 100% wrong about the model-- you are in a VERY WEAK POSITION Amos BECAUSE you tend to "SEE" in the market only those "signs" that you model is STILL WORKING and it prvents you from SHIFTING VIEW. Amos Can anyone of you suggest-- how could you go long this market once it sarted to crawal up after the loas of last JULY? Amos lows Amos no offers== ok swetz there was a minor creek at 2150 that was jumped mary joined. swetz and was successfully tested on the backup a few weeks later swetz to me, that changed the trend to up Peter July o6 was a backup of creek Amos never mind-- think about it and you will see that it was VERY DIFFICULT To go long-- if y ou are HONEST mary what are you reporting on about July 7 swetz I was long there mary July 6 Amos According to what model were you long swetz? swetz backup to creek kent wb mary Amos Go back to the quarterly-- WHAT CREEK? mary ES, YM gold, soy, ? sorry WB?? don't know it Amos At any rate -- I am happy for you swetz same thing happened on the daily chart at the end of March 2007 Amos Next chart is crude oil kent DJR weekly Amos Another chart that i am coping with its definition mary crude looks higher or at resistence here per wycoff Amos The break to 50, in my mind broke the BULL MARKET because i took out the last low of 55 from 2005 Amos This is how I look at the market Amos So it is a large trading range. swetz sorry, I wasnt watching quarterly, tradestation doesnt have those charts Amos If I look at the 2005 as PS, high of 2006 as BC, low of 2006 as AR we are in a large SECONDARY TEST John left. John joined. Amos This is ONE WAY TO Look at this market from WYCKOFF POINT OF VIEW kent jan 07 is a spring of that 55 area Amos You can even see some "HEAD AND SHOULDERS" if you want mary break of $50....that is crude u mean Amos kent-- this is the opposite view-- but then you see 100 dollar a barrel oil== totally different view Amos mary we are looking at charts posted on the site. I think it is number 4 mary thanks Amos Clearly if you look at the last low as a spring-- then you must be LONG and not look at the chart Amos But I look upon the decline of 2006 as a sign that the BULL market in CRUDE is OVER! kent http://www.ltg-trading.com/20070619.pdf mary thanks kent yw Amos So we have 5 months rally and the 70 is looming as an impotant level of resistance Amos Again- whether this view is correct o not00 notice that the monthly chart so far is making higher lows-- so even if I want to be short-- I must surrender to the market and wait for LOWER LOW on that chart! John left. John joined. SDW left. Amos If we are in a LARGE TRADING RANGE between 80 and 50-- then the view changes completely because we are in the MIDDLE OF THIS RANGE and ANY MOVE HERE is rather RANDOM (with respect to the boundaries of the range! Amos Not easy Amos The next chart is crude daily-- and this is anothe picture-- it shows a CLEAR DOUBLE TOP. Joe_Kl curious where that 83 Hi and 90 hi take the Monthly TL in crude Peter if you look closely on the monthly, another possibility is a wide up channel with 50 the bottom of the channel Amos Double tops are a good trading model, It is always good trade to sell first time market hits double top or buy first double bottom because these are clear points of support resistance Amos Of course when I want to sell a daily double top-==- the safest mode is to sell a DAILY THRUST Amos So this chart is very tempting (tmw is last trading day of July contract and a new game begins!!) Amos so watch this chart Amos Peter you are absolutely right an d Joe-- What do you meant by 83 Hi and 90 hi-- years? Bob GE Joe_Kl The years Amos Next chart is ANNUAL BRITISH POUND Joe_Kl Monthly Hi's Crude Joe_Kl TL Amos Joe-- I do not have that chart in front of me-- so cannot answer, i will look later Joe_Kl I cant draw the TL through, have to do it on TnT Pro later John left. John joined. Joe_Kl ok TY Amos You cannot ask for a more classical double top than this. Joe_Kl Looks to be close towards recent his John left. Amos The first top is the famous SOROS 1 billion coup high longing the DM against the BP in 1995 and now again at 2 dollars per british pound Amos Of course if you look at the Interest rate differential-- perhaps it justifies higher bp-- but this is a HUGE DT Jeff left. Jeff joined. Amos Last time we had a DOUBLE BOTTOM in 2002 market spent 3 years hugging that bottom and some months BELOW the 140-- only to start a mega year rally to the top. Amos Are we sitting in an Alice in Wonderland mirror pool? Joe_Kl You have any pre 1975 BP data ? swetz so seeing this nice DT, we could maybe go short on a weekly thrust Amos I do not know-- I just know that this is a VERY IMPORTANT CORNER and when IT RESOLVES ITSELF-- THERE WILL BE SOME GOOD TRADES az maybe on a monthly thrust Amos I am trying to short the british pound-- BUT I AM VERY CAREFUL about the timing and any time I see a daily or weekly thrust to the upside- I STEP ASIDE!! swetz yep, good point Amos This may take a while-- but from a trader point of view-= you have to search for signs to be short this market. Amos One chart that I like very much kent you could almost make a case for a SOT for this quarter in the pound Amos Next chart is quarterly wheat Joe_Kl Largest prob Im having with currencies is they are all showing 50/50 locations, can dip, can rally, DX IF a LO was in we should see 100 on a 50% retrace, but knowing such a LO is in, not easy az does anyone have quarterly wheat? Amos Again I am putting my stupid 50% lines and I call the rally to 4+ in 2002 a sort of half way mark and if , per chance, this is true that we practically finished this rally kent no az Joe_Kl No Amos It is posted on the sit no? az k, thks Joe_Kl Wasnt in print pack Amos Peter no wheat chart posted :) Amos I sent it in a separte letter Joe_Kl But you can talk through it Amos What about silver is monthly silver posted? kent no Kelley n Amos I sent wheat, silver and copper in a separate letter Joe_Kl hmm az not in archive either Peter no, but we have monthly charts Amos so please continue Joe_Kl Dont have it Joe_Kl maybe not issued Amos Ok use your mind's eye and imagine Joe_Kl still at Garys Amos then you can look at the charts later Peter y Amos Just believe my words Joe_Kl lol Amos The most intersting thing about the quartely wheat is that last qaurter which ends in 8 trading days is the largest range in 121 y ears Amos 11 years Amos and barring the fluke of 1996 it is the largest quarter in decades Amos This is significant. Joe_Kl lot of Cause too Amos When market goes into such aberration-- many times it indicates an extreme of major proportions. The chances are VERY HIGH that next bars will be much smaller Amos So the volatility we see in wheat (and possible other grains and perhaps other markets)-- is NOT going to remain that high after June Amos At least this is what history dictates to me. So I am framing my mind in that direction Amos MOST PEOPLE have short term memory and they tend to think that the recent past will repeat itself-- expecially the recent past that they see on the chart Amos This is rarely the case and with the proliferation of cheap (and INACCURATE) trading systems-- this will not be the case Amos BTW, when you use systems like E signal-- you have to take into account that their CONTINUATION CHARTS ARE VERY WRONG carnac cz testing weekly higher lows 398.75. tonite it held. no violation so far. odds favor trend. Amos They are cheap and you should not expect perfect performance Amos Especially around change of contracts days-- the continuation chart on E-signal is VERY MISLEADING Amos so please be careful Amos If you want to cope with it-- have both charts the specific conract AND the continuation chart side by side and that will prevent fatal errors Joe_Kl Not so sure, I can see Cotton doing 80-100, Coffee 175-220 Joe_Kl definately Joe_Kl Corn was 460 in March Amos especially when the difference beteen adjacant (?) contracts is high Joe_Kl not a plant in ground Joe_Kl Would a stock crash and major inflation blast Commods ? Amos For example the differnce between June yen and Sep yen was about 102 tickes- between June euro and Sep euro- 40 ticks Amos The spread between agricultural contracts can be huge Amos At any rate - back to the wheat Amos Because of the fact that the market already posted a VERY LARGE RANGE FOR THE QUARTERLY-- I would be VERY CAREFUL of the LONG SIDE of WHEAT. Joe_Kl Got to run, thanks Amos see yas in am Amos It is a wild market and the intraday moves are very large ( I have been trading it intraday on very small size and you can easily get a few hundred dollars move several times a day) Joe_Kl left. Amos This point about RANGES is an important one Amos I mentioned long ago that i always mark to myself before the trading day the 100 points range for the next day. Amos Since the trading day for currencies starts about 20 minutes after they close in Chicago-- you can get many time a low or high point rather early. Amos If the market starts going the other day-- I mark the 100 ticks (mainly in the euro, more like 160 points for the british pound and less than 100 for the yen in recent months) DaveM gotta run guys...thanks amos apprecitat it as always Amos In other words- the concept of "NORMAL" daily range is imoprtant. The whole approach of the FULCRUM METHOD is also based on that DaveM left. Amos The fulcrum method is based upon a certain deviation from last day close either up or down Amos I do not use it-- mainly because I know that so many people use it-- that I think it cannot work (it does many times)-- but I DO use the 100 ticks in the euro as a road mark Amos So if you look on the wheat chart and you see that it has exceeded all normal expectations-- you know two things, at least Amos one-- that all those who tried to buck the trend based upon historical volatility-- got killed Amos two-- this is an extreme event and the chance it will repeat itself is small Amos market normally comes back to more average range (sort of regression to the mean when it comes to hights of decendents) Amos I really posted the silver chart as a challenge Amos I even coined it in my letter "DISCUSS" ala SNL famous skete Peter silver is at an important crossroads, weekly and monthly apex Amos TRUE Peter Amos Silver is sitting on a huge monthly apex and I wanted to see what people here see Amos We shall do it next time-- try to bring as many BULLISH ARGUENTS and BEARISH ARUMENT for this chart and we see if we can come up with any concensus or disagreement Amos Same for gold and same for COPPER!!! Peter the ranges on the daily are still tradable, but as the apex aproaches, getting tougher Amos These are important charts Amos They do effect INFLATION EXPECTATIONS or perhaps reflect them-- and if we see clear signs of something in the chart-- it can be very helpful even to other markets Peter these charts are diabolical(sp?0, easy to make bearish cases and bullish cases with these apexes, but one must remember the trend has been up since 2000 Amos maybe this is a good way to finish tonight-- since you do not have the charts in front of you-- I would ask the Fullets to post is and we try to make some sense of them next time Amos If you have any questions ask now kent ok, ty Amos, great stuff carnac instead of 100 pt. mark, is helpful to know atr. to project poss avg. move and to spot a deviation. hugh left. Amos I cannot overemphasize , folks , how critical is this corner in many markets-- It feels like HISTORICAL CORNER Peter thank you Amos, good insights as always Amos carnac- i do not have atr. I only have atm Alvin THX AMOS carnac take-out. to go please. lol. swetz great stuff Amos - much appreciated ! ! ! ! :) Peter I agree Amos, recession or further inflation is about to be decided very soon Amos btw, yen above 8204 will be a minor daily thrust-- that can push the market to the 84 area-- what you may call a "RELIEF RALLY" Peter agree on Yen, been watching closely Peter also on the dollar, notice that the dollar and Kiwi have LOWER values in the september contract Amos ok , if no questions-- then have a NICE 20 and 21 is summer solstice, or however you spell it longest day of year az thanks so much Amos Amos good night az gn Amos swetz gn Amos warren thanks Amos kent good night Alvin GN Amos left. Alvin left. carnac ty and gn Jeff Thx Amos and All kent gn Jeff Peter good night everyone Jeff kent Gn and a Gn to All az gn Peter and thanks kent left. warren gn all Peter gn AZ warren left. Kelley left. carnac left. tom left. swetz gn folks :) swetz left.