Gary_Fullett joined. Amos joined. Amos hi kent hi Amos Gary_Fullett hi amos Amos How are you guys surviving the little volatility we are experiencing? kent having fun, lol Amos Those day traders in Crude--are a little hurting warren greetings Amos DaveM trying....holding Gary_Fullett took a vacation week lol Amos This is only the beginning-- it is going to get wilder kent no doubt Amos will be rather funny if 2007 will resemble 1907 DaveM wilder is ok as long as we can define the direction a bit AMos biwi joined. biwi hi everyone DaveM hi biwi kent as long as that nut job is running the show in Iran Amos Yes, Wilder is OK if you ignore his sinister Delta trading system biwi hi dave DaveM lol biwi i'm here for about an hour kent hey biwi biwi hey kent Kiran joined. Amos Ok, Gary asked me to say a few more things about P&F so I will try kent hi Kiran Gary_Fullett and maybe s and p thougth amos Amos First you must learn to use Stockcharts correctly. carnac joined. Gary_Fullett we have stock traders here as well DaveM great Kiran hi kent.. hello everyone Amos Do not use their "Traditional" method, but the "USER DEFINED method so that it calculate the filters according to your specifications Amos 2. Choosing the filter is as crucial as choosing the TIME FRAME you are working with Amos I mentioned that I ALWAYS look at 3 filters to try to find out which one is the SM looking at (Smart money) Steve_W joined. Art joined. Art hi everyone kent hey Art, just starting biwi hi Art Amos 3. Try to stick to "BETWEEN CLEAR 2 WALLS" appraoch-- where the COUNT is Rather clear--there your chance to count wrong is smaller Amos 4.Never determine DIRECTION from P&F charts. Amos I cannot use the chart without the VOLUME PRICE adjubnct. Amos I am not smart enough to find from the P&F chart the direction--even tho Wyckoff SAYS you can. Amos He might have been able. I cannot. I NEED the VOLUME PRICE chart for direction Bob joined. Amos Beayond this-- It is down to drawing the chart accurately. DaveM bob just started pnf discussion Bob thanks Amos What I mean by that is that if your filter is $3-- do you draw a reversal (Another Column) after $2.90)? Amos what about 2.80? Amos What about 2.75? Amos These are PERSONAL DECISIONS that you have to Make yourself. Amos No computer program will count CORRECTLY for you. Amos This is why I am stuck with HAND MADE CHARTS. Amos and I am not always correct. Amos Over counting can be as bad as UNDER counting. Amos In ohter words, if you have a count of 13 which calls for 39 dollars move on a 1 X 3 chart-- and the correct count is only 11 which is 33 dollar move-- what do you do when the price moves 6 dollars beyond your target? Amos Well this is where TRADING SKILLS come in and NO BOOK or CHART in the world will help. Amos This is why it is NOT an absolute method, even tho it is better than most. Amos I have learnt the hard way to accept that there will be times that the P&F chart will completely FOOL me--and that is PART OF LIFE Amos I have also learnt , because of that-- to be less BRAVE with the chart--and sacrifice early entry-- for higher clarity of trend change and new cause building. Amos it boils down to the same maxim: "There are Bold traders, there are OLD traders, but NO BOLD OLD TRADERS" Amos This is basically it. Amos If you have any specific questions--ask now! Gary_Fullett anyone? DaveM Could you clearify the wall you mention Amos when you teach long enough you learn tha NO QUESTIONS can be one of two things Amos 1. Your audience KNOWS ALL DaveM lol Amos 2. Your audience knows NOTHING (Afraid to ask) biwi i know nada lol biwi of pnf Amos In case 2 you are in a genius calss-- small chance Amos In case two it means only ONE THING-- THE TEACHER SUCKS biwi lol Amos Clarifying the wall: It is a thing that happens to a Jew when he is in that Section of Jerusalem and he thinks he is talking to G-D while he is only talking to a WALL kent most of our pnf guys aren't here DaveM lol biwi oiy vey biwi lol Bob I've often said to my myself with the little pnf i've done.. find lps and some ps.. and you can begin the pnf Amos It is simply those situations when the area of accumulation or distribution which is worth counting is WELL DEFINED between long columns-- I call them walls Amos Ok if the P&F guys are not here-- they can read the log and ask questions another time. Amos Gary said about the S and P-- to say a word Amos My assumption is based upon the quarterly. Amos I thought last time that the chart will be more clear-- but they are taking their time. Kelley joined. Amos A thrust of the Quarterly lows in the Indexes-- will bring an avalanche of selling. What happens after that-- is anybody's guess. kent hey Kelley JimC Amos I find it difficult to switch from one point reversal to three point.......don't know why .. just habit maybe Do you use both interchangably Amos I am short up the gazoo and intend to stay that way until proved wrong Amos JimC-- this is CRUCIAL Kelley hi Keny, sorry I'm late Folks Kelley Kent Amos What you just said is akin to saying: " I find it difficult to switch from the hourly chart to the daily, don't know why" Amos If you trade with only ONE filter-- YOU ARE BLIND as if you trade with ONLY one TIME FRAME Amos Notice that the s an P is still flirting with the CLOSE of last quarter (1428.50) let alone with the LOW of last quarter. Amos So I may be very presumptious about my bearishness. DaveM 1410 last qtr close DaveM current ly 1416 Amos But we definitely has a MONTHLY REVERSAL and a LOWER LOW on the monthly--which is the first time that happened since july of 2006-- so I think it is important. Amos At any rate-- the Daily chart is not so important to me at this juncture which ends by Friday-- 2 more days for that enigma Amos This is not easy corner because there is no synnergy amongst the indexes-- the strengh of the DOW UTILITIES even with the little crack in the BONDS-- is NOT congrouos-- I do not understand this (Unless it is clear run to "quality" by smart mavins-- I simply DO NOT KNOW and I let the market show me Amos last 30 minutes in the yen-- big hands Larry joined. Amos Ok let me say a few words about Jessee. Amos The next few pages (start with chapter 19) are probably the FINEST GEMS ever written about trading. Amos I like to say that his book actually STARTS here Bob last 30 min. in yen? Amos In other words all was INTRODUCTION swetz joined. Amos Bob-- the Yen had just formed a big hourly bar that looks like as OKR (outside Key Reversal) and is already retracing it sharply --indicating it may only be a blip) Amos Large key reversals in the Yen are quite telling. Amos At any rate back to Jessee--the reason the next few chapters are so good is because he is touching there on the HEART of our business: Amos M A N I P U L A T I O N Alvin joined. hugh joined. Amos He says: page 233 in the paper back: Amos " I do not now when or by whom the word "manipulation" was first used in connection with what really are no more than common merchandising prcesses applied to the sale...." az joined. Amos In our culture the word Culture has NEGATIVE connotation. Amos You say manipulation and immediately you see the Image of Bill Clinton. kent lol Amos Doe s not mean it is BAD Bob ben lied today about the fed and the working group.. that's manipulation.. Amos If you have a bad back , especially the lubmar section--and you find a Good chiropractor (rare) he can manipulate your spine and Save your life Amos The word manipulation by itself DOES NOT MEAN GOOD OR BAD-- but in the market place it is simply the MECHANISM to convince the PUBLIC to TAKE THE RISK OFF The hands of the RISK GIVERS-- THE COMPANIES that ACTUALLY MANUFACTURE the things we use and need Amos Jesse is using words like merchandising etc. Amos I like to tell the story of Steven Jobs when he first came to the Venture capitalist to finanance his first APPLE az left. Amos Imagine you are that Steven Jobs coming from his GARAGE where he worked with Wozniak (spell?)--a hippy with long hair and torn jeeans Amos You walk into the office of a big venture capitalist and you inform him that you just built in your garage something called PC. Amos The ONLY PC that VC knows is Politically Correct. But you tell him this is another PC-- PERSONAL COMPUTER Amos "what does it do?" Amos It can add and subtract" Amos "how much money do you want?" Amos "$40 mil" Amos Why don't you build a few of those thing I never heard off...Try to sell them-- if they sell-- I will give you the money" Amos SJ: "Sir, if I build only a few of those-- each will cost $30,000 and no one will buy it. If we start with a few thousands we can drop price to around $5000 and many will buy" Amos "How much , again, do you want?" Amos $40,000,000 Amos GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE. Amos end of story kent lol Amos Question and morale: WHAT SHOULD STEVEN JOBS DO? Should he lie to the VENTURE CAPITALIST to convince him to spen the money because it is the BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD? biwi unless you were a .com Amos The first capitalist that invested in Jobs made around 700 mil on his 40 mil investment Amos Is this manipulation? Amos Should you lie in business? Amos Anyone who does not understand that such LYING IS NECESSARY and GOOD-- Should not be a TRADER Amos So Jesse explains to us that Manipulation in the stock market is simply part of the business. Amos Those who get offended by it-- simply do not undersand the game and should not be in it biwi routine Amos To me the WHOLD WYCKOFF APPRACH is simply one of the BEST WAYS TO READ the mind of the manipulaters and try to GO WITH THEM and not AGAINST THEM Amos The rest is just garbage Amos Jesse goes on to differentiate between "rigging" and Manipulation that aims at accumulation or distribution by economic forces that need to HEDGE themselves. Amos AND HE SAYS FROM THE START:"How can you buy a large block of stock without putting up the price on yourself?" Amos "How can it be solved?" biwi nice Amos And he says very clearly:" WELL, it would DEPEND UPON CONDITIONS. You cannot give any closer answer than that" Amos Jadies and lentlemen-- it takes YEARS to understand that statment. Amos It takes many humiliation in the market to understand that statement ( at least in my case) biwi predetermined outcome? Amos But if you want to succeed over the long time-- you MUST accept it as the RULE OF THE GAME and LEARN how it is being done. Amos Then he goes to say that most of the tricks , devices used in the Past (his PASt which to us is our PRE CAMBRIUM) are gone because of the regulations and the FCC Amos Not Fcc but never mind ( I used to be a radio officer on a ship) Kelley SEC/FTC Amos But it is important to understand that DESPITE all the REGULATORY COMMISSIONS and the Rules of the Sec (thanks Kelley)-- Manipulation still exists today even if it has taken different shapes Kelley :)yw Amos He says that to learn the trics of the greats lik Daniel Drew, Jacob Little or Jay Gould (he does not mention Bernard Baruch for some reason-- I don't think the two liked each other) is not useful Amos Because he compares it to using Archery in today battle field. Well tell this to an Alqueda or Hizbullah simplton that is making a mock of Best lazers in the world by using DIFFERENT RULES OF WAR Amos BUT! and here is the GENIUS of that book and especially that Part of the book: Amos "On the other hand there is PROFIT in studying the HUMAN FACTORS-- Amos and he goes on and one about certain human "factors. Amos Basically it boils down to Human Weaknesses that HAVE NOT CHANGED SINCE ADAM AND EVE. Amos "Fear and Hope remain the same-- therefore the study of the psychology of Speculators ias as valuabe as it ever was" Amos I don't know if I told you, but I am writing a book about Jesse livermore. kent cool swetz AWESOME Amos ! ! ! ! !! ! Amos I call it Jesse Annotated. A'la Alice in wonderland Annotated by Martin Gardner where he shows that almost every line in Alice can be a mathematical equation. Amos Fascinating book Because Carrol WAS a mathematician Amos I am trying to show how a book that was written in 1927 about trading is STILL CLASSSIC and withstood the TEST OF TIME. Amos and I go chapter by chapter and try to bring modern examples how certain things tha Jesse wrote-- apply fantastically today. Amos These few chapters , starting on page 233 convinced to do it. Amos I don't agree with EVERYTHING he said-- but the gist of what he wrote is the essence of the market and, in my opinion, the main reason why all those Market Wizards , without exception called it the best book ever written about trading Amos He says: "Weapons change, but STRATEGY remains strategy, on the NY stock exchange as on the BATTLEFIELD" michal joined. Amos " I think the clearest summing up of the WHOLE THING was expressed by Thomas F Woodlock when he declared: Amos "The principles of successful stock speculation are based on the suppostiion that PEOPLE will continue in the future to make the mistakes that they have made in the past" biwi very true Amos Or, my version, as Einstein said:" As far as I know only 2 things are INFINITE: the UNIVERSE and HUMAN STUPIDITY. I am not yet sure about the UNIVERS" Gary_Fullett lol Kelley yes Bob ignorance can be fixed, but dumb is forever DaveM definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results....that's a Jessie "sucker" Amos Well this brings me to a topic I wanted to talk and still did not find enough material about biwi yup Amos It is called the MAXIMUM PAINT POINT. Amos You find it in Google about options expiration, but I think they are trying to HIDE the real problem. Amos I don't remember who said it first, but I like to say it: Bob max pain? Amos " MARKET WILL RISE UNTIL THE LAST WEAK SHORT BAILS OUT and will fall UNTIL THE LAST BRAVE LONG BAILS OUT" Amos The WHOLE IDEA of BC AND SC are based on it. Amos In other words-- the LAST SUPPLY on a sharp decline is NOT someone SELLING to make profit-- but FIRE SALE-- MARGIN CALL!!! biwi great line Amos The ONLY PEOPLE WHO SELL at the bottom are those who DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE! Amos WHY? Amos Because they ARE FROZEN. THEY CANNOT SEND ANTOTHER MARGIN. Amos This is NOT SUPPLY . This is EMERGENCY. That is Why SC is followed by AR-- Amos AR IS NOT DEMAND-- it is basically NO MORE SUPPLY OF IDIOTS who did not use STOP LOSS. Amos Why does it happen again and again-- because people keep making the same mistakes. This is why MANIPULATION CONTINUES and why the STOCK MARKET EXISTS. Amos You can also say that this is why LAS VEGAS IS STILL THE FASTEST GROWING AREA ON EARTH-- I have to agree Amos But When all is said and done-- Being a good trader is not READING CHARTS And MACD-- But understading PSYCHOLOGY. Amos I always try to figure where is that MASIMUM PAINT POINT going to happen Amos Let me tell you upfront-- I SUCK AT THAT Amos I always UNDERESTIMATE HUMAN STUPIDTY. And it cost me a bundle. Amos This is one of my greatest weaknesses and it is VERY DIFFICULT to overcome. Amos It is CLEARLY a PERSONAL MEASURE--This is why I try to force myself to stick to the models ( most of "my" models are based on psycology of traders). But I still fail Amos Jesse goes on to talk about little examples of public stupidity , games etc. Amos He calls is Ponzi. I do not know the origin of that word and NO ONE uses it today--but he lived thru them and he tries to tell a little about it Bob dont some use the vix as a pschological model for buying selling Amos Good read Amos Then middle of page 235 he says: JimC left. JimC joined. Amos "The dictionary definition of MANIPULATION includes corners." Amos He goes to enumerate a few famous corners-- which I have no knowledge of--so it does not speak to me. Bob pg 185 pdf version Amos But the Hunts brothers is something I lived thru and it worked. Until the market decided that entugh is enough and STOPPED THEM. Amos I do not think that such mega moves are so important to successful trading. But the most important thing to learn from this is that it CAN HAPPEN and you must SURVIVE them. Amos To say to yourself that nobody is THAT STUPID to participate in such moves-- is costly. handles joined. Amos Same as the saying that the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent kent hey Handles handles hello kent Amos TIME OUT Amos Here is a good example to you about time frames. Since, while writin here I am also watching the yen-- here is interesting observation-- ON LINE Amos I watch a few screens with futures and Forex and several time frames Amos On the hourly yen we have a supposed Outside KR. Amos But on the 2 hour forex ( I told you that 4 hour charts on Forex are very important and I also use the 2 hour bars) Amos On the 2 hour bar that just closed 16 min ago-- that "OKR" is actually a LARGE BAR THAT CLOSED IN THE MIDDLE. Amos The meaning of those two bars is almost opposite: Amos The KR says demand is winning Bob fxy Amos The 2 hour bar closing in the middle says -- THERE IS BALANCE BETWEEN SUPPLY AND DEMAND and no RUSH--Wait a few bars before we exit that area (between 117.17 and 116.70 on the forex side) Amos Now which bar should I believe? kent the longer time frame Amos YOu know, by now , that I always surrender to Higher authorities-- and I prefer to think that the 2 hour bar is telling a truer story. Amos I immiditatly DISCSRD THE HOURLY KR and do not think too much about it. Amos Over the long haul such constant re-evaluation and abiding by the higher time frames-- is a life saver. Amos It is also, ALAS, Very tedious because you are constantly on the prowl looking for TRUTH AND JUSTICE and you wind up poor as DIOGENES Amos Back to Jesse. swetz Amos question please? Amos Go ahead steve swetz if over the next hour in the Yen, swetz the yen has an hourly bar that closes at the high swetz then the 2 hour chart would not look so bearish right? Amos The 2 hour bar close in the MIDDLE-- IT IS NOT BEARISH is just says NMT Amos NEED MORE TIME Amos Don't forget that this is noise because the DAILY CHART was BULLISH TODAY and yen should tackle the 8701 (thrust) and above it can go to 88. pat 4 hr yen chart looks like kr Amos Again The quartely chart that I showed long ago with the 7 year uptrendline looks more and more a SPRING OF THAT TRENDLINE! swetz if the daily chart is bullish, should we disregard the 2 hour chart? Amos 4 hour yen forex chart just starte and looks like chicken soup pat :) Amos Steve-- Had I been Asleep ( it is 4 25 am here) as A NORMAL PERSON SHOULD HAVE BEEN-- I would not even see this 2 hour chart-- but since I am talking to you and it sprung to my eyes-- I just shared with you an example how I use time frames Amos Back to Jesse: He is actually underming those "corners" Amos he says: swetz I understand - thanks Amos ::smile Amos "As a matter of fact VERY FEW of the GREAT CORNERS were profitable to the engineers of them". lurk joined. Amos This is important. He is telling us that even tho --markets can be manipulated, at times to great price distances by some very shrwed and powerfull individuals, or groups-- IN THE LONG RUN-- IT IS NOT SO IMPORTANT! Amos this is important. Amos We like to tell stories about wall street escapades and all kinds of great traders and individual "achivements". Amos In the long run-- what is important is to learn HUMAN WEAKNESSES and REALISE that the market USES THEM. NOT THE PARTICULAR SPECTAULARE FEAT of this or that. Amos I told y ou that John Stafford made 12 million dollar in the 1987 "crash" and then took the money and bought heavily the Bio tech sector RIGHT AT THE TOP and lost more than 12 mil in the next 1988-1990 correction Amos Jesse then tells an interesting conversation with Glenn Gould ( acutully Jay, but I love Glenn) Amos And the great trader was admiring Daniel Drew "His touch of Death".... there are a few stories about great traders in Jesse's book , because in those days when the scope of the market was smaller, individuals had RELATIVELY big power Amos But if you think that the picture is different today-- NOT AT ALL Amos You can hear a lot of talk about KAMPO. lurk left. Amos Well KAMPO has more money than MOST CENTRAL BANKS in the world-- and if they WANT TO MOVE THE YEN THEY MOVE THE YEN Amos Can we read KAMPO's INTENTIONS? Amos To the degree that WYCKOFF ANALYSIS allows us-- yes. Amos Otherwise-- you must accept the fact that the market can have very "irrational moves" because there are powers in the market that can take it WHEREVER THEY WANT. Amos I must re-iterate this again and again-- I keep saying this to myself every day-- THEY CAN DO WITH THE MARKET WHATEVER THEY WANT! Art left. Amos Those "they" are what WE call CM, others call Smart money, Others call the MARKET, others call "THEY"...but it is based upon the fact that they KNOW THAT THEY CAN PUNISH THE WEAK HANDS SO FAR. Amos I NEVER KNOW WHERE THE POINT OF RESIGNATION or CAPITULATION IS. scotch joined. Amos Floor traders sometime can have an idea, especially if they have in their hands DECK of significant sops. But if you think that SOrros and Buffet use stops in their trading--- WAKE UP Amos the end of this short chapter which is his INTRUDUCTION to the deep subject of MANIPULATION is more clever quotes which you can read for yourself Amos We can talk about it-- but it is more an the anekdotal vignett type which is a finie story. Amos The BASIC IDEA IS that to be a good trader YOU MUST UNDERSTAND HUMAN WEAKNESS and it HELPS to always ask yourself-- WHERE WOULD BE THE MAXIMUM PAINT POINT? Amos for example-- Last night wild move in Crude-- jumped 5 bucks in about 20 minutes based on ZILCH Amos where did it go to? Amos What is the significance of that 68 level? Amos I glared at the chart today and realized that anyone who had stops above the last high before the market plunged to the 50's area was around 68. Amos The move CUAHGT THE LAST STOP THERE and COLLAPSED. kent CUAHGT = caught Amos I asked myself-- COULD I HAVE PUT A WILD CARD SELL ORDER AT THAT POINT-- and the only answer I could give myself was NO Amos NO way could I believe that the market will run to that point so fast. Amos In RETROSPECT it was a FANTASTIC POINT TO LEAVE A GTC SELL ORDER... but that is a LIE-- I COULD NOT IMAGINE SUCH A THING HAPPEN. Amos Cuda shuda wuda died when DID NOT was born Amos BUT-- IT helps to THINK THAT WAY. Amos Many times I go to sleep and leave on the computer FAR FETCHED ORDERS-- IN CASE THAT HAPPENS-- I WANT IN Amos But these situations are very far and in between and afeter a while you give up on those adventures and you stop buying the Lotto ticket. Amos But acutally it is NOT SUCH A bad METHOD OF TRADING... fIGURE OUT EXTREME POINTS where, if the market goes fast-- it will PUNISH THE LAST OF THE MOHICCANS--and leave order there Amos This is, btw, one reason that many ELECTRONIC PLATFROMS do NOT TAKE GTC ORDERS--interesting point-- I Think the market is trying to protect itself from too many smart traders that will use such tricks. Amos But , again, it all boils down to the PRINCIPLES OF MANIPULATION that Jessee explains better than any other book I know Amos THAT IS IT. Amos If you have any questions-- now is the time kent good stuff, Amos, thanks Amos 15 biwi very interesting points Amos 15 Amos sorry biwi copper ofter made those extreme moves biwi often Gary_W joined. Amos every market makes those moves once in a while biwi very true biwi silver beans Amos just to validate the time frame point-- the yen is already sedated and "should" continue sidewasy until a new dawn breaks Amos siver beans are very hard on the digestive system swetz lol Kelley I have a question re: JL Livermore. Amos what is your general opinion of him? DaveM use a laxitive DaveM it helps Amos Ok folks-- we continue this jorney into space next time Steve_W Thanks Amos. DaveM thx amos...nice work handles thnks swetz when you are looking at PnF charts Amos, are your first trying to identify the PS/LPS points to take a count if you believe TR is accumulation? Gary_Fullett amos any markest look intereting to u? warren thank you, sir biwi if we that the market are manipulated then cm sm would take out stops on both sides. how do you protect yourself? DaveM left. Amos Steve-- I am looking first of all at "CLEAN COUNTS" those that are defined by "walls" Amos Truffles are very hot these days, Gary biwi "if we know " Steve_W left. Amos All markets are interesting right now. I am in Yen, stocks, beans, wheat, silver, Hi ho, and crude biwi long beans and wheat? Amos biwi-- I walways use condoms biwi lmao kent lol Gary_Fullett fattenign lol swetz lol Amos Amos No I am trying the long wheat short beans very small and still losing biwi ok biwi ty handles long or short crude? Amos ok guys --I leave with the same message: swetz just curious Amos - how many trades do you generally do in a month? Amos and now you know the REEEEEEEST of the STOOOOORY kent lol Amos COLLECT INFO, SIFT, SELECT and share Amos good night Kelley ty Mr. Cohen handles great advice swetz gn Amos - thx for the lecture handles toda amos biwi good night take care of those safes Amos left. swetz ::smile Alvin Thx Amos goodnight biwi ::cool Gary_Fullett night amos handles ok guys Gary_Fullett ty handles stick around Gary_Fullett good lecture tonight handles for a second Gary_Fullett started with p and f handles lol Gary_Fullett s and p biwi great lecture Gary biwi good night everyone Kelley gn biwi kent n biwi Gary_Fullett any questions? kent gn Gary_Fullett i wil ahve this log out early? biwi left. Bob good night.. great to hear from amos handles thanks gary John left. Kelley gn Bob Alvin THx Gary swetz too bad for Joe - he missed another great Amos lecture swetz ::smile Gary_Fullett lol Lady_K left. kent hard for him to sit with his fingers taped, lol Gary_Fullett I am sure he will read it Kelley lol Gary_Fullett actaully Gary_Fullett to me swetz lol kent Gary_Fullett amos and joe are very simlair Gary_Fullett in style Gary_Fullett thougths swetz yeah, I can tell Gary - lol Bob two peas in a pod? Kelley lol kent personality? lol pat personality kent lol Pat Gary_Fullett yeah yes pat right on kent:) kent :) Gary_Fullett okay any q? Gary_Fullett chart tiem for me swetz gn Gary ! ! ! ! 1 kent ok, thanks Gary, great class Kelley ty Gary handles gn gary handles thanks warren Thanks, Gary, for bringing Amos to us Gary_Fullett well i want to help Gary_Fullett anyway i can warren nothing like it Gary_Fullett we fight kent gn folks, c ya in the AM ( you too Kelley) :) Gary_Fullett and this si a marthion not a sprint Gary_Fullett so we go forward Kelley gn Kent Gary_Fullett see u all tommorw Kelley lol:) Gary_Fullett night all handles good advice handles gn kent lol Gary_Fullett left.