Amos joined. Kiran hi rhonda rhonda Hi Amos!! rhonda Hi Kirin!! Amos Hello rhonda Kiran sorry Kiran no problem rhonda. swetz hohowdy rhonda Stockseller joined. swetz howdy Amos BBob joined. rhonda Hello Swetz ::smile rhonda left. rhonda joined. swetz Bob and SS - Amos just said that all late comers must do 25 pushups swetz ::smile swetz must count them out in Hebrew ::smile rhonda whoops bumped myself Stockseller Swetz... biwi joined. HANDLES sorry just crying from watching American Idol.....LOL swetz lol handles Stockseller a hud stayim shalosh arba Stockseller hamaesh Stockseller sesh sevah smonah HANDLES shesh rhonda lol Handles Stockseller tesha Stockseller How am I doind swetz? rhonda Hi biwi BBob I cant get over 10 biwi hi swetz you doing better than me DaveM joined. Stockseller Lol swetz ::smile DaveM Hi everyone Stockseller Swetz the best part is im chinese swetz lol SS JohnF joined. rhonda lol SS swetz hi Dave and John Stockseller ::punk JohnF hey guys swetz lol Stockseller Lol' JohnF good evening rhonda punk in pink, lol Amos How are you guys in Newtonian physcis> DaveM bob...posted worden's daily report on BOTB for you and other's that follow china. Amos ? swetz lol Amos BBob ok cool DaveM fairly insightful...tho pesimistic Amos This is today's subject HANDLES i am an expert swetz cause and effect BBob well, I have to tell ya they need to do a better job of routing out those momo jerks DaveM great....i'm screwed rhonda Amos sounds interesting swetz lol Dave swetz lol Handles Stockseller Handles is teh man swetz lol Bob Stockseller he's also a magician Art joined. Stockseller he can turn stocks into dung HANDLES amos.....did u see the binoculars video with the head of the army???? rhonda Hi Art!! swetz lol SS HANDLES it was hilarious Stockseller Lol Art hi rhonda and everyone Stockseller They have a candaina army on etoo.. HANDLES its on youtube now HANDLES saw that Amos We deal with W=F X D; Conserv ation of energy, angular momentums and such HANDLES yes of course JP left. HANDLES thats obvious HANDLES LOL JP joined. skylar joined. Stockseller LOl Stockseller Of course it does Stockseller E+MC2 Amos But I am NOT going to talk Thermodynamics Doc_K joined. DaveM I thought it had to do something with DaveM an apple falling on someones head jc joined. swetz thats good Amos, I missed that day in class kent joined. DaveM while they were catching a few zzzz's swetz ::smile JohnF oh boy...thermo JohnF :( swetz lol Dave DaveM ahhhh differnt story i guess swetz kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt swetz howdy JC warren left. warren joined. kent ssssssssssssssswwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeettttttttttttttzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :) swetz lol DaveM hey johng swetz howdy warren jc hi kent and swetz andall DaveM johnf Art hi Kent , jc kent Hey Art Kelley joined. warren good evening folks JohnF hi dave rhonda Hi jc and Kent and Warren kent Hi JC JohnF hi kent and jc kent hey Rhonda kent Hi John BBob Dave.. the OEX short area is up near 654.. that seems like a long ways from here Doc_K EVENING ALL kent Hi Doc Art hi Kelley swetz howdy Doc rhonda Hiya Kelley ::beer jc rhonda ::wink skylar hey doc, kent everyone kent Hey Kelley Art hi Doc JP I invited a friend of mine tonight Kiran ~ Kelley hi Art, good evening Folks swetz hi sky kent Hi Skylar rhonda Hi skylar Kelley hi Kent Kelley ty Rhonda DaveM not familiar with oex....dave the dummy ..help? al joined. JohnF hi kiran swetz howdy Art and Kelleyroni rhonda yw Kel swetz hi Al Kiran hi JohnF JohnF hi kelley and skylar and everyone...and amos Kelley hi Amos DaveM so handles...we going long jrcc? BBob sp100 index.. 654 is 1/2 back and ice area from jan. low kent welcome Kiran Kiran hello everyone.. Kelley hi John kent Hey Amos DaveM i'll take a look bob Art hi swetz , al Stockseller See Handles running............... Stockseller run handles run......\ kent lol SS kent Hi JP Kelley hi Kiran Amos Ok lets start HANDLES Count YELLEK HANDLES welcome kent hey Handle kent s kent lol skylar left. HANDLES hi kents HANDLES lol kent :) HANDLES ready al Evening Swetz, Amos, Kent,Art,Kelly & Everyone else Kelley Hockynetics by L. Ron Handles skylar joined. HANDLES lol rhonda Amos we are ready biwi hi Stockseller Blast off... Amos I would like to explain today why I think Wyckoff is such a great way to look at markets Amos This is material that I have gleaned and deducted over the years, and I think is pretty accurate Amos Although, in the long run-- EVERYONE invents some sorts of TRUTHS and TRUISM for themselves. Amos Wyckoff did not invent anything by himself Amos He just collected wisdom and put it in an ORGANIZED FORM in his books and course. Amos The single most important thing he realized is that the MAIN thing that controls prices is SUPPLY AND DEMAND Amos This is known to EVERY first year student of Economics Amos But Wyckoff was smart enough to undersand that the PUBLIC will NEVER be able to get to know the TRUE picture of S&D. Amos Therefore he, Like Colombo , tried to DEDUCE the TRUTH from whatever he could get his hands on JohnF Gary is going to be logging this right...?? Kelley y Amos Those who remember Peter Falk (MAY HE REST IN PEACE)- know that it was a show where we Saw the MURDER in the first 5 minutes-- and then sat for 2 hours glued to the screen hugh joined. Amos watching a rumpled detective with a cigar and a clunky car disecting the situation, adding facts and SIFTING THRU the garbage--and slowly building in frong of our eyes Amos the case and finally arriving at the TRUTH that WE ALREADY KNEW 2 hours ago Amos Why did we like to watch it? Amos Because we SO like to see Great analysis and DISCOVERING the truth. Amos When I sit in front of the screen, I many time think of myself as Columbo. Amos So the first thing that Wyckoff used is some ANALOGY to NEWTONIAN PHYSICS swetz hopefully with a better car ::smile Amos Don't ask me why-- I do not know JohnF 3 laws. Amos But the fact is that the ANALGOY to Basic physics works well in the market place Amos The first principle that he used is the analogy to the simple definition of ENERGY=Work= W= F X D Amos those of you who remember your first course in phsycs, probably remember the drawing of a box on a plane Amos It is marked with the letter M for Mass scott joined. Amos An arrow pointing from Left to Right has the letter F on it for FORCE JohnF hi scott...talking on wyckoff as analogy to physics. Amos then an arrow pointing on the Right side of the box pointing further right and it has the letter D on it for DISTANCE scott hi Amos And it says that IF YOU KNOW THE FORCE IMPOSED ON A BODY WITH THE MASS M and you know the DISTANCE that force PUSHED THE BOX-- Then you KNOW THE ENERGY Stockseller left. Amos W= F X D Amos Wyckoof simply said that the FORCE that pushes prices is the VOLUME Amos The DISTANCE is PRICE CHANGE!!! Amos And the "X" is the big UNKNOWN Amos And he arrived at the conclusion that from time to time if you analyze the relationship of VOLUME AND PRICE CHANGE-- then you can get a fairly good idea about the ENERGY involveds Amos In our case ENERGY IS THE REAL FORCES OF SUPPLY AND DEMAND IN THE MARKET Amos Of course, In PHYSICS-- the relationship is CONSTANT-- IT IS ALWAYS THE MULTIPLICATION of the two quantities. Amos In the market place-- that relationship is MUCH MORE CONVOLUTED Amos And Rarely is the SAME! Amos If we DO NOT KNOW THE RELATIONSHIP-- then we cannot detect the real forces of Supply and demand. Amos So Wyckoff determined, or classified, or narrowed down certain situation where he thought that we CAN decypher those relationships CORRECTLY skylar left. Amos The main reason so few people follow Wyckoff lies right here Amos I Amos Most people are TOO LAZY to constantly play the COLUMBO game and CONSTATLY SIFT and WEED OUT the UNTRUE sitations in the market where you CANNOT KNOW THE REAL and true relationship of Force and Distance Amos People like a SIMPLE RULE Amos IT AIN"T to BE FOUND Amos because the market is all about risk transfer as I have pointed before Amos This is why it takes INTENSIVE and LONG study. Amos This is why EVERY MARKET has its OWN CHARACTERITICS of THIS ENGIMA of the correct relationships between VOLUME and PRICE CHANGE Amos Pork Bellies behve very differntly than Wheat Emile joined. Amos Yen behaves very differently than Swiss frank, even if they are Both Foreign currencies Amos To Think that if you undersantd certain situation pretty clearly-- and DECYPHER the relationship between Volume and PRICE CHANGE--then it will work the same in all other situations-- is a ticket to RUINATION! Amos However to realize that there ARE SITUATIONS where the relationship between Volume and PRICE CHANGE can lead us to BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF SUPPLY AND DEMAND Amos is GREAT Amos This is why I was attracted to this paradigm. Amos It told me that if I work HARD ENOUGH-- there will be situations that the MARKET WILL REVEAL ITSELF TO ME and I COULD MAKE MONEY Amos The BIGGEST TRICK IS TO WAIT FOR THOSE SITUATIONS where things are CLEAR JD joined. Amos The trouble with most of us is that we are trying to ANALYZE and COME TO CORRECT CONCLUSIONS ALL THE TIME Amos This is sad Amos But such is life and life sucks Amos When I give frontal lectures I use a little magician show Amos So try to use your imagination Amos I take a large dark piece of cloth and an "object" which people do not know what it is and I cover the object with the cloth Amos Now I stand and PUSH THIS "COVERED OBJECT" with that dark piece of cloth and ask people to tell me what do they think about the object Amos First I push the cloth lightly with a snap of the finger and the object moves easily across the table Amos EVERYONE egrees this object is rather light Amos Then I pretend to push the cloth with all my force and my face contorted from the "effort" and the object does NOT MOVE-- and most people think that that mysterious object is rather heavy Amos That is basically what Wyckoff assumed Amos We DO NOT KNOW THE NATURE OF THE OBJECT JD left. Amos BUt IF WE JUDGE CORRECTLY THE AMOUNT OF FORCE ( my pushing) and we SEE THE MOVEMENT OF PRICES-- THIS IS SOMTHING WE SEE ! Amos Then we can , fairly accurately DEDUCT about the WORK Amos TROUBLE IS that the auience does not know if the EFFORT I AM SHOING is TRUE OR FAKE Amos They look at my face-- but I can bluff Amos THE MARKET CAN BLUFF TOO with the volume. Amos It is one of the HARDEST THINGS OF THE MARKET TO BLUFF WITH because the VOLUME is one of the BEST INTRINSIC variables of the market--still-- the market can bluff when it wants to Amos This is why volume does not tell the truth ALL THE TIME Amos HOWEVER -- under the WYCKOFF PARADIGM-- there ARE TIMES WHEN THE MARKET SIMPLY DOES NOT CARE TO BLUFF ANY MORE-- and that is where you can make money Amos This is why BC, SC, VOB, VOT--are GOOD situations--because these are situations where the chance that the market is BLUFFING US-- IS LOW Amos and our LOK== LEVEL OF KNOWLEDG IS HIGH Amos This is why I USE VOB as one of my major tools Amos Of course-- these situations are far and in between--and WAITING FOR THEM IS THE SECRET, NOT OUR GREAT CAPABLITY as "ANALYSTS" Amos Wyckoff called this the LAW OF EFFORT Vs RESULT Amos Effort= volume Amos Result= PRICE CHANGE Amos And no one has ELEVATED THIS PRINCIPLE to a higher level than WYCKOFF Amos Then comes the NEXT LAW OF WYCKOFF Amos He also realized that TIME IS OUR NEMESIS Amos This he took from SCHABAKER Amos Richard Schabaker is HARDLY MENTIONED today Amos Even a GOOGLE SEARCH FOR HIm brings barely 90 sites Amos Here is one place where he is mentioned: Amos v Amos Why can't I paste here? JohnF possibly too large...?? kent could be because the java addition you have is not the lastest version BBob upgrade to newer java Amos I do not understand I am trying to paste a link kent edition Art left. Amos yucks JohnF Yes I think it would be java. Whit joined. Amos I will send it to Gary later. I was sure I could paste it here Art joined. rhonda usually you can kent hey whit BBob text does get cut off also BBob even if you could paste it JohnF joes forums an alternative too. Whit Hi Kent, folks rhonda Hi Whit JohnF evening whit. Amos At any rate, Schabaker was a guy that lives around 1880 and he was either a smart mathematician or whatever and he is formulated much of what we know today as Technical Analysis Amos One of the things that Schabaker realized was that TIME IS ONE OF THE CURSES OF HUMAN BEINGS and that we ARE NOT BUILT genetically to deal with Amos As I mentioned long ago-- I like to ask if 5 minutes is a SHORT or a LONG TIME and the answer depends whethere you are SITTING on the STOVE Amos Or just watching it kent lol Amos Schabaker thought-- how to deal with a variable that we cannot deal with and apparently knew a little algebra and realized that y ou can sometime Amos solve complicated equations with many variables by HOLDING all variables CONSTANT and solving the equation for X1 Amos then insertin that variable into the equation and sovling for X2 and so on and so forth Amos So SChabaker asked himself-- WHAT IF WE HOLD TIME CONSTANT? Amos What are we left with? Amos And he took another element from Newtonian physics Amos which is the LAW OF CONSERVATION OF ENERGY Amos It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant, althoug it may change forms Amos Kinetic energy can turn into Thermal energy and Potential energy must be equal to KINETIC energy Alvin joined. Gary_Fullett joined. JohnF hi alvin, gary. Doc_K AH HA Amos He looked at HAMMER THROWERS (discus, SHOTPUT) and realized that the harder and faster they rotate in their circle --when they release the Hammer-- the FARTHER IT WILL FLY Alvin hi everyone Amos The POTETIAL ENERGY that the throwe is accumulating while turning in the circle MUSt be equal to the KINETIC ENERGY that will push the Hammer farther Amos This is how he arrived at POINT AND FIGURE JD joined. Amos He assumed that when the CM or the market, or whoever ( I did not read SCHABAKER ORIGINAL BOOK and I do not know how he called the CM) Amos But he Assumed that when the market is ACCUMULATIN or DISTRIBUTING with the INTENTION TO MOVE PRICES--then it stands to reason-- and this was a very good assumption on his part-- that Amos THE NUMBER OF TIME and the INTENSITY that the CM is using during that phase of ACCUMULATION/ DISTRIBUTION-- should give a GOOD INDICATION about the DISTANCE prices will move Amos Instead of looking at PRICE CHANGE IN A SPECIFIC TIME FRAME (which by necessity INVOLVES TIME!) Amos He decided that if he FILTERED THE RANGE of PRICE MOVEMENT within which the CM is doing is ACCUMULATION-- he can get a pretty good notion of that POTENTIAL ENERGY Amos This was a genius idea Amos Wyckoff took this idea and made it a CORNER STONE OF HIS WORK Amos He called it the LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT Amos To use Wyckoff in the classical way that he taught his course-- MANDATES the use of POINT AND FIGURE because he said that you cannot get a complete picture of the TRUE SITUATION of SUPPLY AND DEMAND withou knowing the potential energy involved in any phase of the market Amos Now-- I am NOT telling you that if you DO NOT USE P&F-- you are doing things WRONG! Amos I am only saying that CLASSICAL WYCKOFF MANDATES THE USE OF POINT AND FIGURE Amos WHY? Amos Well, imagine that the CM decides to accumulate Amos What will he do? Amos He will Decide the LEVEL at which he would buy the stuff Amos He will designate a CERTAIN RANGE in which he is going to do that process and he will start Buying and selling in that range-- creating the FALSE IMPRESSION that will FORCE the PUBLIC to SELL HIM THE STOCK or COMMODITY he wants to ACCUMULATE Amos This range is the CIRCLE IN WHICH THE HAMMER THROWER IS ROTATING before he release the hammer. Amos Short break Amos Am I VERY boring so far? rhonda not to me kent no, great stuff Kelley no not at all Gary_Fullett wow cool warren facinationg scott no Alvin good stuff HANDLES nope Gary_Fullett no learnign myslef JP smokin Amos HANDLES i like this Amos A$$ lickers HANDLES Kol Beseder biwi great HANDLES nah kent lol HANDLES not ass rhonda lol biwi lol Amos Ok we go on Steve_W joined. Gary_Fullett there are ladiers present amos lol kent ladiers = ladies Kelley lol rhonda lol kent :) Kelley its French? kent LOL warren lady traders rhonda with bells on for Gary, lol Amos The idea of looking a CERTAIN TRADING ranges as ORIGINS OF POTENTIAL ENERGY that will eventually lead to the KINETIC ENERGY-- PRICE MOVE-- is very crucial Amos I would have loved to go over an actual chart and explain-- but we do everything without visual aids--so be it Amos The SECRET OF Point and figure charting is that it is FILTER. Amos You have to decide WHICH MOVEMENT OF THE CM are REAL ACCUMULATION / DISTRIBUTION and which are PURE NOISE Amos This is , again , one of the reasons why so FEW people use P&F correctly Amos Why? Amos Because it turns, according to Schabaker -- that if you identify CORRECTLY Amos the number of times the CM has MOVED PRICES WITHING that range of ACCUMULATION DISTRIBUTION-- which , accordign to him, was the BUILDUP OF THAT POTENTIAL ENERGY Amos THEN-- you will know the INTENTION of the CM how FAR PRICES WILL GO Amos This is rather SINISTER Amos What he said is that the CM KNEW AHEAD OF TIME where PRICES WILL GO Amos SOUNDS VERY MANIPULATive and MEAN Amos But that is not so bad Amos ACTUALLY I like to compare it to gasoline in the tank Amos When you fill you gas tank and get on the highway-- you will go UNTIL YOU RUN OUT OF GAS Amos Once you run out of gas you MUST GET OFF THE ROAD and refuel Amos This is similar to the ENERGY STORED in PRICES once you identify CORRCETLY THE PROCESS OF BUILDING THAT POTENTIAL ENERGY Amos Wyckoff realized how hard it was to correctly identify that elusive "CAUSE" and even set up some RULES of HOW TO COUNT Amos COunting it the BIGGEST secret of Point and Figure. Amos MOST PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO COUNT Amos MOST PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO INTERPRET VOLUME CORRECTLY Amos Lucky for us Amos Btw-- if you read standard books on volume-- most of them show you the 2 x 2 table that says that if prices go up and volume is high-- market is strong and if prices go down and volume is high-- market is weak Amos then the say in the BOTTOM ROW that if market goes UP but volume is LOW-- then market may be weak., or vice versa-- if makret goes DOWN buy volume is LOW--market can actually be strong. Amos This is, of course the epitome of stupidity because on extreme days of limit up or limit down--voume is ZERO but according to that table market is NOT STRON even thos it went LU Amos Much of the inromation out there , in general, is sinister in the long run and AIMED TO MAKE US LOSE MONEY Amos Another thing that I hate is E-SIGNAL using GREEN LINES for up days and RED LINES for down days? Amos WHY? Amos Because the market DOES NOT WANT THE PUBLIC TO GO SHORT! Amos We are used that when we COME TO A RED LIGHT we STOP and green light means GO Amos SUBCONCIOUSLY, when you see green and red you tend to AVOID THE RE Amos RED Amos This is part of the grand schme to fuck us all Amos But in this room we all use black lines Amos Back to The Law of Cause and effect: kent lol BBob snap! HANDLES lol Amos Schabaker decided that if you idenify correctly the area of building of REAL POTENTIAL ENERGY==TH E CAUSE Amos and you FILTER PRICES CORRECTLY then the rule says that the NUMBER OF TIMES THE MARKET SPENT IN THE PROCESS OF ACCUMULATION TIMES THE SIZE OF THE FILTER-- IS THE ENERGY Amos If you count correctly the number of columns in a point and figure chart-- and multiply them by the SIZE OF THE FILTER--that is HOW FAR PRICES CAN GO Amos Mind you CAN-- NOT MUST Amos This is just potential energy/ Amos However-- since I use point and figure almost esclusively in my trading-- WHEN MY COUNT IS DONE-- I CANNOT STAY IN THE TRADE ANY LONGER Amos This can be VERY COSTLY AT TIMES Amos WHY? Amos Because the WHOLE IDEA OF THE LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT IS BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT YOU IDENTIFIES THAT ELUSIVE CAUSE "CORRECTLY" Amos Therein lies the CURSE of P&F and why so few people use it Amos HOW DO YOU KNOW WHICH TRADING RANGE IS TRUE POTENTIAL ENERGY and which it not? Amos ALL I can tell you without divulging too many secrets that i Do keep close to my chest and have paid umpteen millions to learn-- is thhis Amos WHEN I IDENTIFY CORRECTLY THE AREAS OF TRUE CAUSE-- NO ONE CAN OUTTRADE ME Amos When I AM WRONG ON THE COUN T-- I MUST BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT MY CONCLUSIONS of price behavior because the market can KILL ME! Amos One of the most important things I have learned about Point and figure charts-- goes back to SIMPLICITY HANDLES how can u know true area of cause? Amos Those of you who have taken a sewing course and used some simplicty patterns-- KNOW that SIMPLICITY IS GENIUS Amos This is NOT easy to learn-- to wait until the market REALLY TELLS YOU! HANDLES sounds like an art based on experience Amos Wyckoff stated in his rules of counting that--YOU SHOULD ONLY COUNT AREAS THAT ARE CLEARLY VISIBLE HANDLES i understand that Amos he specified phases and counting one phase at a time Amos All I can tell you on such a short note is that whenever you see a CLEARLY DEFINED AREA OF ACCUMULATION AND DISTRIBUTION--That is most likely a GOOD COUNT Amos When you try to "invent" areas of Cause-- you are up shits creek swetz Amos - from my experience, I have found the tighter the TR, the most accurate the count, have you found the same thing in your experience swetz ? Amos At any rate the important thing to understand is from a CLASSICAL WYCKOFF point of view-- he took SChabaker's ideas and IMPLEMENTED THEM TOTALLY into his work Amos swetz, I am a man and tight is good! swetz LOL HANDLES nice JP rated R DaveM snap!!! HANDLES thats illegal in the states....come to Canada for that Kelley lol HANDLES u were not specific amos HANDLES lol Amos To anser that question will require several hours of going over charts and really identify tight area JP LOL JP we have time Amos it also depends at what phase of market you are JP kidding Amos The question is Excellent-- but like all excellent questions the answer is NOT SIMPLE biwi left. Amos Look, I am trying to stuff lots of material into a very short time and OBVIOUSLY this cannot be done in a satisfactory manner DaveM bob will take pictures and post too... Amos Wyckoff basically said two things Amos In order to correctly identify the "true" forces of supply abd denabd you need to use the two corrolaries that may give you a clue Amos about the truth Amos one is volume and PRICE CHANGE--which should tell y ou more about the DIRECTION OF THE MARKET Amos and one is Cause and Effect which measure the ENERGY STORED in any preparatory phase that can tell you HOW FAR THE FORCE OF THE MARKET INTENDS TO MOVE THE MARKET Amos The part of Wyckoff where he tells you that if you study P&F long enough you can even tell direction-- is NOT TRUE in my opinion Amos I lost too much money trying to do it in my life-- and I GAVE UP Amos Perhaps Wyckoff himself could tell direction from P&F charts-- I CANNOT Amos So I had to invent my OWN WYCKOFF Amos We ALL INVENT OUR OWN WYCKOFF- and that is FINE Amos because in the long run we MUST ADAPT any trading approach to OUR PERSONAL character Amos This is why Each one of us can interpret Certain market conditions DIFFERNTLY Art left. swetz AMEN Amos - beautiful statement ::coolsmile Amos You guys have learned to use aread of creeks and ices--in you own ways. Amos I use them a little differently Amos The important thing is to arrive at a system that will PREVENT YOU FROM MAKING MAJOR ERRORS about the market Amos I use point and figure intensively HANDLES thats the whole poijnt to me Amos It is a good money making tool for me--but to tell you that each and everyone of you could make money with it-- is foolish Alvin what settings do you use for P&F on daily and weekly Amos? Amos Just to determine what is the RIGHT FILTER in various situations is very hard Amos In the same vain that to decide on WHAT TIME FRAME TO TRADRE is very hard Amos I made large sum of money yesterday. What time frame did I trade on? MY BEHIND Amos Can you define how long a behind is? Amos ASk bionsa Gary_Fullett lol Gary_Fullett or borat Alvin lol swetz lol kent lol Gary_Fullett beyonce i think Steve_W left. Gary_Fullett lol swetz lol BBob we don't want to be behind the times HANDLES how long is a chines name amos HANDLES How Long Steve_W joined. Amos At any rate. I want to explain to you that the Wyckoff paradigm is build on some of the MOST RAGGED principles of human behavior HANDLES thats his name kent ::biggrin Amos It takes the principle of MANIPULATION, of RISK TRANSFER Amos Of DIFFICULTY OF DEALING WITH THE TIME DIMENSION Amos and forces you to THINK as correctly as possible Amos THERE ARE SITUATIONS where VOLUME PRICE ANALYSIS is the BEST Amos There are SItuations where you can identify Areas of accumulation and distribution-- very accuratel Amos and then a wyckoff student is riding high swetz ::ninja ::coolsmile Amos then the market can enter a phase which renders the wyckoff student-- USELESS while STUPID MA people rake in the money Amos The last year has been very difficult for me swetz ::angry Amos Ask John Henry Amos He lost over half of his capital last year Amos WHY? Amos After all , in hindsight, markets were trending very stongly?! Amos I do not have the answer/ Amos Wyckoff never used mathematics in his trading Amos He scoffed at ALL PATTERN RECOGNITION methods Amos Yet-- he defined specific patterns and DID use some math according to HIS appraoch Amos Because I grew up in this business via the Wyckofff principles Amos I am using Point and figure. Amos It was INSTILLED in me and today if I look at a chart and I do not have a Point and figure presentation of the prices in front of me-- I feel BLIND Amos To me the process of FILTERING IS CRUCIAL swetz me too Amos ::smile Amos Does it mean that EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU MUST USE THIS? Amos NOOOOOOOOOOOOO Amos Linda uses various methods and she does fine Amos But take away her tricks-- and she will be blind too. Amos I am not telling you that you MUSt use Point and Figure. Amos I just tell you that CLASSICAL WYCKOFF mandates their usage because it is the SECOND LAW of Wyckoff Amos it is the way he copes with the ELUSIVENESS of the REAL SUPPLY AND DEMAND Amos Since FILTERING is so important-- I stress filtering both PRICE MOVEMENTS and TIME FRAMES Amos On the price volume chart--looking constantly and simultaneously at several time frames--can save you big mistakes. Amos The Point and figure chart filters moves that , at least according to Wyckoff, ARE NOT THE MOVES of the CM. noob joined. Amos The filter says that if you ignore swings SMALLER THAN THE FILTER--you are looking at the "REAL MOVES OF THE CM" Amos for example: Amos If I look at the S and p-- my basic filter is 2 points. Amos sorry, 6 points Amos I use box size of 2 points (200 in CQG) and since the convention is to call the filter as a multiple of 3 times the price box size--then 2X3=6 Amos But when the market is in big moves I MUST ALSO LOOK AT OTHER FILTERS Amos Please DO UNDERSTAND -- the ONLY TIME P*F works is when I am LOOKING AT THE SAME FILTER THAT THE CM IS USING Amos The fact that the CM is using P&F is beyond questions Amos But this is also true about trendlines Amos MOST TRENDLINES people use are CROC Amos The ONLY TRENDLINES THAT WORK are those that the CM IS USING Amos The ONLY TIME FRAME THAT WORKD is that at which the CM is looking Amos So when looking at the s and p Amos I will be looking at 3 points filter, 6 poins filter and 9 points filter Amos On the nasdaq I look at 3 point 12 points and 30 points filters Amos Sometimes the picture is clear on one chart more than the others Amos As ALWAYS I am looking for SYNNERGY JP how do you know when you are resonating with the CM ? do you ever know realtime or only after the fact? Amos JP-- there is no answer to this JP k Amos The only true answer is that I resonate when my P&L grows and I DISTONAT when my P&L diminishes JP k Amos It is a CONSTANT PROCESS OF SEARCH and weed out Amos I have said it many times here--that the more you collet information and data-- and sift thru it and look for the diamond in the gough-- the closer you get to KNOWLEDG E and success JP left. Amos By the way I was going to offer something JP joined. Amos If you guys have a trading idea-- you should always bring it up to the room and explain Amos This should be a FREE FLOWING source of TRADING IDEAS all the time Amos DO NOT QUIBBLE and DO NOT FIGHT OVER TRADING Amos This is STUPID, INANE AND USELESS Amos Once you bring up a trading idea-- EACH ONE OF YOU SHOULD TEST IT FOR HIMSELF/ HERSELF Amos It does not matter if it works or not Amos You should NOT FEEL ASHAMED if your trading idea DID NOT PAN OUT Amos DO NOT FEEL RESPONSIBLE for others losses/ HANDLES i state all of my trades here for commods.....keeps me in line..... Amos The IDEA IS that you did your homework and according to your set of decision making tools-- you thin that this and that is important support or resistance and if the market does this or that-- YOU WILL DO THIS OR THAT HANDLES do it for myself actually Amos Trading ideas should be PUT FORTH AHEAD OF TIME Amos PREFRABLY A DAY IN ADVANCE Amos My trading ideas are put before me WEEKS IN ADVANCE swetz like IBM ::smile Amos IBM was a good example but it also was VERY TIMELY Amos If you btought it up 22 days ago--iT WOULD HAVE BEEN as good Amos BUT PEOPLE GET TIRED WAITING FOR GODOT and he not coming kent lol Amos Remeber I told y ou several weeks ago about the OEX monthly chart that is in its 55 months and sitting at the 62% retracement? kent y Amos It may yet turn out to be a VERY GOOD IDEA and TRADe Amos It DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU TRADE IT IMMEDIATELY Amos but IF I AM RIGHT ON THE MONTHLY CHART-- I am going to make MOOLA on this Gary_Fullett also remeber the bonds u mentioned amos at the lows in yoru cycle Amos The bonds trade was significant for ONLY ONE THING which I am not sure you guys took in swetz I remember that Amos, I think it was the second lecture you did swetz ::smile Amos THE ONLY THING ABOUT THE BONDS was not so much the SYMMETRY which , by LUCK turned out to be correct noob luck? Amos but that ONE DAY WITH LARGE VOLUME thaT TOLD ME-- THIS IS SERIOUS BUYING and then IT TOOK the weekly high by two ticks and I mentioned to you-- that this was a WARNUING SIGN that we may enter a more SERIOUS CORRECTION upwords Amos YES noob, LUCK! Amos Luck combined with hard work=- is very good Tom left. noob imo Luck = preparation + opportunity Amos At any rate--I just wanted to mention a few things about Wyckoff--the classical way-- and tell you that THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO SKIN THE CAT kent very good, Amos, many thanks Amos If you want to trade WYCKOFF STRICTLY-- You "MUST" use his second law of Cause and effect-- and it requires serious studying Gary_Fullett very well aid Gary_Fullett wonderful Alvin Thanks much Amos swetz excellent, excellent, excellent, excellent, excellent Amos Amos But that does NOT mean that this is the ONLY WAY TO TRADE WYCKOFF kent aid = said swetz ::smile lemt swetz kent kent :) Amos You can see that I have incorporated MA, Thrust, and other addendums to my working tool and it is ok Amos I will try more of this on chart examples in the future HANDLES cool HANDLES thanks amos Amos It is much better with visuals Amos When is your convention? HANDLES may 20 kent May 20-22 kent Reno Gary_Fullett an orgy in reno swetz Amos - I guess you see the outside KR in SnP, DOW, NASDAQ ::smile Amos btw-We DID AN OUTSIDE KR IN THE MONTHLY DOW JP at the risk of being called an ass licker I thought it was very good swetz on monthly chart Amos LOL swetz we wrote it same time swetz lol Gary_Fullett was thinking shakeout of wqeakness there Gary_Fullett well we think wyckoff amos Gary_Fullett so swetz knows Gary_Fullett he has learned wyckoff Gary_Fullett dont knwo where Amos The volume said--BE WARNED swetz we talked about in the room today Amos swetz it in Amos I will not be surprised that we saw the HIGH OF THE YEAR Gary_Fullett highest volume ever swetz that is what I told a friend of mine today Amos as well swetz ::smile Amos At any rate--markets are getting to be exciting and March has its own AIDS Gary_Fullett amos did u see anything besides yesterday Amos BEWARE THE IDES OF MARCH Gary_Fullett to say a top? HANDLES march is a killer month historically Amos Yes Gary, besides yesterday I also saw the day before yesterday and tomorrow is taanit Esther and I am going to fast and then is PURIM Gary_Fullett lol Gary_Fullett i saw an outside day before yesterday Amos ok I am getting silly have a good night Kelley ty Amos HANDLES purim for me too HANDLES woohoooo HANDLES ty amos Gary_Fullett amos loves esther swetz I saw SOT and some stuffing Gary_Fullett easy fast amos\ Gary_Fullett hamentashin for all scott thanks HANDLES easy fast brother.... HANDLES lol Amos see you guys-- remember SHARE SHARE SHARE Steve_W Thanks Gary_Fullett brother form a differnt monther ? HANDLES thanks for sharing swetz THANKS Amos Whit Thanks Amos Amos left. HANDLES lol Gary_Fullett we dont share without protection amos Kelley lol swetz lol Gary HANDLES so key reversals in the dow..... Gary_Fullett i wat to say somethuing HANDLES time to be short the mkts on rallies Gary_Fullett gve me a minute swetz KR in all major indexes handels swetz handles Gary_Fullett please HANDLES nice swetz on monthly chart Gary_Fullett amos swetz outside KR swetz actually Gary_Fullett knows wyckoff probbaly better than ANTONE HANDLES yup Gary_Fullett and that probbaly includes david swetz David still tops to me Gary_Fullett he is the BEST I know with point and figure Gary_Fullett and eh will explain it to a degree Gary_Fullett and I want him to do a special lecture for newsletter people that will blow u away Gary_Fullett amos and I wrked together Gary_Fullett he is now in israel Gary_Fullett and will come back adn work with me again Gary_Fullett i wouldnt sell amos short swetz kent any time table as to when? Gary_Fullett differnt syyle Gary_Fullett not sure when kent kent k Gary_Fullett prob later this month Gary_Fullett so... kent cool Gary_Fullett amos has evolved Gary_Fullett into more models Gary_Fullett and has gotten away form some classical wyckooff Gary_Fullett but his foundation is deep wyckoff Gary_Fullett he tries to enhance it Gary_Fullett like joe with wyckoff plus LOL Gary_Fullett so... JohnF left. Gary_Fullett his credential are huge Gary_Fullett u many not agree with things Gary_Fullett but I respect his hard work Gary_Fullett he isnt trying to convice u DaveM got to amen Gary_Fullett BUT to Share what eh knows Gary_Fullett and u decide Gary_Fullett and leave the rest swetz I agree with you Gary - Amos is amazing too swetz ::smile Gary_Fullett the point to bring him here Gary_Fullett is to share Gary_Fullett and to help US all Gary_Fullett to get better Gary_Fullett thats all is my purpose Gary_Fullett to try to helps us ALL!!!!!!!!!!! Gary_Fullett no ego Gary_Fullett agend Gary_Fullett agenda Gary_Fullett BUT to be helpful with tiem and energy Gary_Fullett to make money HANDLES agree 100000% Gary_Fullett so what eh did was try to help with classical wyckoff!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gary_Fullett and alot more to to share Gary_Fullett so we take what we want!!!!! Gary_Fullett and do our niche Gary_Fullett and try yo get beter noob I have to thank you too Gary. I learn a lot everyday from you and everyone else on here. really appreciate it. Gary_Fullett the semianr will be may 20-22nd at the reno harrahs Gary_Fullett and more detials to be posted next week Gary_Fullett ty noob and we learn form u Gary_Fullett okay any questions? HANDLES we need to keep sharing as a group HANDLES thanks guys HANDLES bye HANDLES sold wheat gary Gary_Fullett beleive me amos doesn tdo thsi often HANDLES woooohoooo Gary_Fullett esp for the price swetz cool handles Gary_Fullett so lets try to make money HANDLES decent price swetz ::smile Gary_Fullett we share Gary_Fullett ebcause we all can help Gary_Fullett and learn Gary_Fullett thats the purpose Gary_Fullett to help Gary_Fullett be psotive Gary_Fullett :) Gary_Fullett okay any questions? swetz man, Joe missed the classic Wyckoff class Gary_Fullett i ahve kept u her e long enough? swetz I should have woke him up Gary_Fullett it was quiet eh/. Gary_Fullett ? Gary_Fullett lol Kelley lol swetz lol kent lol rhonda lol Kelley yep BBob He's playing count yellek tonight Gary_Fullett i told him clas starts at midnight lol swetz lol Bob Kelley lol swetz lol Gary JP lol HANDLES nawwww noob I noticed Amos uses fib numbers. It's probably finds the numbers relate to human behaviour? Kelley no q's Gary, ty scott ::biggrin HANDLES thanks guys HANDLES later Gary_Fullett i think so noob swetz I guess noob HANDLES bye ya'll HANDLES lol Kelley good night Folks, ty:) swetz cy handles Gary_Fullett i use 50 percent as aghuide HANDLES canuck swetz gn kelley rhonda Bye Kelley noob I found that too myself. use fib in all my analysis now. rhonda Bye handles Kelley bye Rhonda, Swetz Gary_Fullett see u all tommorw.... Gary_Fullett ty u all swetz I think Amos uses it for counting days and price retracements noob rhonda Bye Gary HANDLES left. JP gn G money thanks Gary_Fullett canuck should rally tonight and tommoeq swetz he uses them a lot it appears Gary_Fullett night all ty Gary_Fullett left. JimC left. noob Amos was talking about March. Heres a link to Mark cooks March outlook for those interested Kelley left. noob http://www.markdcook.com/index.cfm?page=Commentary-10:-2/23/2007 Alvin night all BBob any chance we have 3 more months of backing and filling in stocks, before we get another chinese Snap!.. Gary_Fullett joined. Gary_Fullett wait Gary_Fullett amos eailed me swetz Gary twin brother is back Gary_Fullett and i will post something on the chat or log tommorw swetz lol Gary_Fullett on the site Gary_Fullett so u know Gary_Fullett i will ahve kelly post it Steve_W left. DaveM ya he mentioned this in the chat early on DaveM gary Gary_Fullett an article to read Alvin thanks gary Gary_Fullett okay Gary_Fullett i wasnt here swetz thx Gary Steve_W joined. Gary_Fullett will post it and let u know DaveM thx gary Gary_Fullett night all for real :) Gary_Fullett left. He [Schabacker] was actually the true father of technical analysis as a science. He was the one who classified many of the chart patterns — rounding tops and head-and-shoulder patterns, rising wedge, different kinds of gaps. “In fact, his nephew was Robert Edwards (co-author of Technical Analysis of Stock Trends; see below). So Edwards & Magee’s material was really Schabaker’s stuff, but drier. Schabacker’s book included lots of interesting insights on trading and human nature.” http://yillionaire.com/linda_bradford_raschke.htm