09/16/2003 20:54:02 EDT   User [gary fullett] joined forum from 204.233.211.97 09/16/2003 20:54:39 EDT   User [wyatt] joined forum from 172.140.104.60 09/16/2003 20:55:06 EDT   hello everyone :) 09/16/2003 20:55:26 EDT   09/16/2003 20:55:37 EDT   Hi wyatt 09/16/2003 20:55:42 EDT   good evening 09/16/2003 20:55:57 EDT   hi Gary & Kris 09/16/2003 20:56:58 EDT   User [Tom] joined forum from 12.222.146.145 09/16/2003 20:57:04 EDT   User [Shar] joined forum from 67.42.5.131 09/16/2003 20:57:58 EDT   User [Dennis] joined forum from 64.63.215.209 09/16/2003 20:58:17 EDT   User [PianoMan] joined forum from 209.179.50.210 09/16/2003 20:58:29 EDT   did u all get the charts? 09/16/2003 20:59:00 EDT   User [Guest2] joined forum from 24.162.138.29 09/16/2003 20:59:06 EDT   y 09/16/2003 20:59:23 EDT   y 09/16/2003 20:59:25 EDT   y ty 09/16/2003 20:59:29 EDT   y 09/16/2003 20:59:49 EDT   User [JohnH] joined forum from 68.101.12.27 09/16/2003 20:59:55 EDT   avast, ye swabs 09/16/2003 20:59:59 EDT   batten down the hatches 09/16/2003 21:00:08 EDT   User [jdstock] joined forum from 66.191.102.159 09/16/2003 21:00:20 EDT   User [Scott B] joined forum from 12.212.214.90 09/16/2003 21:00:28 EDT   I see a point and figure char t tonight 09/16/2003 21:00:34 EDT   we're in for a blow 09/16/2003 21:00:52 EDT   yes 09/16/2003 21:01:08 EDT   User [Zack] joined forum from 207.168.128.201 09/16/2003 21:01:17 EDT   several P&Fs 09/16/2003 21:01:20 EDT   Hi folks 09/16/2003 21:01:55 EDT   hi zack 09/16/2003 21:02:11 EDT   hi zack 09/16/2003 21:02:15 EDT   hey Zack 09/16/2003 21:02:28 EDT   Hey ZZZZZZZZ 09/16/2003 21:02:50 EDT   No s;ee[ing in class Dennis :) 09/16/2003 21:02:56 EDT   sleeping 09/16/2003 21:02:59 EDT   User [greg] joined forum from 206.58.228.164 09/16/2003 21:03:01 EDT   I will begin in a few 09/16/2003 21:03:05 EDT   evening all :) 09/16/2003 21:03:18 EDT   evening gregg! 09/16/2003 21:03:25 EDT   ty shar :) 09/16/2003 21:03:33 EDT   Hey greg 09/16/2003 21:03:51 EDT   qand everyone else for thier unvoiced welcome :) LOL 09/16/2003 21:03:55 EDT   hey zack :) 09/16/2003 21:04:07 EDT   i was thinking, (hey greg) 09/16/2003 21:04:08 EDT   LOL greg 09/16/2003 21:04:14 EDT   :) 09/16/2003 21:04:31 EDT   User [sal] joined forum from 209.34.24.2 09/16/2003 21:04:49 EDT   Welcome sal 09/16/2003 21:05:14 EDT   hi Zack , gang 09/16/2003 21:07:10 EDT   hey sal 09/16/2003 21:07:43 EDT   09/16/2003 21:07:46 EDT   have y'all started ? not seeing any dialogue 09/16/2003 21:08:15 EDT   me neither 09/16/2003 21:08:34 EDT   User [Peter] joined forum from 24.205.240.194 09/16/2003 21:08:53 EDT   not not yet i was waiting 09/16/2003 21:08:57 EDT   i will begin now 09/16/2003 21:08:59 EDT   been out of town, anyone know what's with coffee 09/16/2003 21:09:14 EDT   oops sorry Gary 09/16/2003 21:09:21 EDT   yes sal, its not ready yet ;) Lol\\ 09/16/2003 21:09:37 EDT   lol !!!!! 09/16/2003 21:09:49 EDT   so did everyone get charts? 09/16/2003 21:09:53 EDT   y 09/16/2003 21:10:04 EDT   ooh, i need to go get those real quick :) 09/16/2003 21:10:04 EDT   okay 09/16/2003 21:10:05 EDT   y 09/16/2003 21:10:06 EDT   lol 09/16/2003 21:10:12 EDT   i want to go over point and figure 09/16/2003 21:10:32 EDT   i wanted to show u the differnce with bar chart 09/16/2003 21:10:44 EDT   i didnt mark the bar charts as that isnt the purpose here 09/16/2003 21:10:48 EDT   but the differnce 09/16/2003 21:10:57 EDT   anyone familar with point and figure 09/16/2003 21:11:22 EDT   very little 09/16/2003 21:11:23 EDT   a little :) 09/16/2003 21:11:24 EDT   very familiar gary ;) 09/16/2003 21:11:32 EDT   some 09/16/2003 21:11:44 EDT   almost none 09/16/2003 21:11:52 EDT   i thought so 09/16/2003 21:11:53 EDT   some, I've never used them though. 09/16/2003 21:11:58 EDT   so let eme go over the bascis 09/16/2003 21:12:05 EDT   and i will let u look at the charts 09/16/2003 21:12:25 EDT   i want u to compare the differnce and u willl see they look differnt 09/16/2003 21:12:55 EDT   User [firedog] joined forum from 66.137.131.100 09/16/2003 21:13:57 EDT   wwhat is p and f 09/16/2003 21:14:00 EDT   p and f 09/16/2003 21:14:09 EDT   is simply NON time dependant 09/16/2003 21:14:38 EDT   the are a series of x's for up movement 09/16/2003 21:14:45 EDT   and o's for down movements 09/16/2003 21:15:29 EDT   the have a box size 09/16/2003 21:15:39 EDT   and a reversal number 09/16/2003 21:15:45 EDT   first what does it so 09/16/2003 21:16:10 EDT   1) it eleimates the insigniicant price moveemnts that bar charts often make 09/16/2003 21:16:24 EDT   as I said they eleimate time 09/16/2003 21:16:37 EDT   many times u can see support and resiatnce better 09/16/2003 21:16:52 EDT   u can draw trend lines with this 09/16/2003 21:17:08 EDT   any questions so far? 09/16/2003 21:17:51 EDT   yes no? 09/16/2003 21:17:54 EDT   not from me :) lol 09/16/2003 21:17:57 EDT   n 09/16/2003 21:17:57 EDT   no 09/16/2003 21:17:58 EDT   no 09/16/2003 21:18:07 EDT   no 09/16/2003 21:18:10 EDT   yes an example of a box size and reversal 09/16/2003 21:18:32 EDT   How do you determine box size? 09/16/2003 21:19:43 EDT   on p and f price movements 09/16/2003 21:20:06 EDT   are combined into the rising colums as I said the x 09/16/2003 21:20:14 EDT   and falling colum the o;s 09/16/2003 21:20:21 EDT   i will get there peter 09/16/2003 21:20:54 EDT   each x 09/16/2003 21:21:51 EDT   or o oppupies what is called a BOX on the chart 09/16/2003 21:22:20 EDT   each chart has a box size 09/16/2003 21:22:59 EDT   thst is the amount that a stock or commodity 09/16/2003 21:23:50 EDT   needs to moce to the top of of the current column of x;s or below the bottom of the current of o;s 09/16/2003 21:25:05 EDT   before another x or o is added to the column 09/16/2003 21:25:14 EDT   understand so far 09/16/2003 21:25:21 EDT   y 09/16/2003 21:25:36 EDT   y 09/16/2003 21:25:40 EDT   y 09/16/2003 21:25:41 EDT   i m am going over basics here 09/16/2003 21:26:12 EDT   each chart also has a 2nd setting called the reversal amount 09/16/2003 21:26:54 EDT   this determines the anount a stock or commodity needs to move down in the opposite direction 09/16/2003 21:27:26 EDT   down if the msrket is in a rising column of x;s 09/16/2003 21:27:39 EDT   up for the column of 0;s 09/16/2003 21:27:49 EDT   before a reversal occurs 09/16/2003 21:28:18 EDT   when ever this reversal threshold is crossed or traded past 09/16/2003 21:28:36 EDT   a new column is started next to the prev one 09/16/2003 21:28:56 EDT   thus allowing moving in the opposite dirction 09/16/2003 21:29:15 EDT   now as far as box size and reveral is concerned 09/16/2003 21:29:18 EDT   as peter asked 09/16/2003 21:29:29 EDT   thr smalle rthe box size and reversal 09/16/2003 21:29:36 EDT   the more chart u have 09/16/2003 21:29:41 EDT   bigge r box size 09/16/2003 21:29:43 EDT   less noise 09/16/2003 21:29:51 EDT   and used for longer temr charts 09/16/2003 21:29:58 EDT   if u wnat small movements 09/16/2003 21:30:06 EDT   u use smaller box size and reversal 09/16/2003 21:30:13 EDT   because this will give u more data 09/16/2003 21:30:19 EDT   more reversals more movemt 09/16/2003 21:30:49 EDT   smaller risk and smaller reward 09/16/2003 21:30:57 EDT   less cuase built 09/16/2003 21:30:57 EDT   as well :) 09/16/2003 21:31:02 EDT   so far any questions 09/16/2003 21:31:06 EDT   on box size 09/16/2003 21:31:11 EDT   n 09/16/2003 21:31:13 EDT   and reveral and what they mean? 09/16/2003 21:31:24 EDT   i know this is slow and tedious 09/16/2003 21:31:27 EDT   but useful 09/16/2003 21:31:28 EDT   and basic 09/16/2003 21:31:45 EDT   i will let u rad what i wrote again f or a minute 09/16/2003 21:33:00 EDT   User [Ron] joined forum from 165.121.227.228 09/16/2003 21:33:07 EDT   what program do you use to assist in the plotting? 09/16/2003 21:35:28 EDT   i use cqg 09/16/2003 21:35:37 EDT   but there are other site that have them too 09/16/2003 21:35:37 EDT   User [Joe K] joined forum from 172.166.135.42 09/16/2003 21:35:41 EDT   but I dont think free 09/16/2003 21:35:46 EDT   or do by hands 09/16/2003 21:36:27 EDT   most venders that have regular charts also have p&f charts, the prob is that very few (if any) venders have accurate datta for the charts 09/16/2003 21:36:46 EDT   09/16/2003 21:36:46 EDT   09/16/2003 21:36:46 EDT   09/16/2003 21:36:48 EDT   obvoulsy accurate data is key for both bar and p and f 09/16/2003 21:37:10 EDT   ok thanks, I assume they should use the same data feed as the bar charts 09/16/2003 21:37:35 EDT   User [worm] joined forum from 12.228.137.20 09/16/2003 21:37:36 EDT   probbaly 09/16/2003 21:37:49 EDT   so breifly 09/16/2003 21:37:57 EDT   as long as a commodity or stock 09/16/2003 21:38:00 EDT   User [Guest] joined forum from 67.75.63.197 09/16/2003 21:38:07 EDT   is in an uptrend 09/16/2003 21:38:48 EDT   CQG unarguably has the most accurate data available, but the way they handle the data introduces errors in the p&f charts 09/16/2003 21:38:59 EDT   sorry gary, getting ahead of the class 09/16/2003 21:39:58 EDT   and doesnt move down more than the reversal distance 09/16/2003 21:40:28 EDT   example the box size miltiplied by the reversal amount 09/16/2003 21:40:52 EDT   the p and f chart will show a column of x 's 09/16/2003 21:41:16 EDT   and the reverse is true in a downtrend 09/16/2003 21:41:31 EDT   User [Guest] left forum. 09/16/2003 21:42:15 EDT   only when the commodity or stock changes direction by more than the reversal distance will a new column be added to the chart 09/16/2003 21:42:36 EDT   obvioulsy the best way is to chart by hands 09/16/2003 21:42:42 EDT   but not always feasible 09/16/2003 21:43:15 EDT   but always better to charts by hand if u can 09/16/2003 21:43:33 EDT   i kept figure charts by hand for about 10 yrs 09/16/2003 21:44:15 EDT   shoot, that's why I waited to start trading so long -- so I could use a computer ;-) 09/16/2003 21:44:19 EDT   any questions 09/16/2003 21:44:22 EDT   User [Joe K] left forum. 09/16/2003 21:44:28 EDT   do u know box size and reverals 09/16/2003 21:44:31 EDT   lol john 09/16/2003 21:44:34 EDT   and how they are contructed 09/16/2003 21:44:56 EDT   LOL JohnH---lot easier then chipping them into stone tablets :) 09/16/2003 21:45:05 EDT   LOL zack 09/16/2003 21:45:22 EDT   yeah man 09/16/2003 21:45:35 EDT   x's aren't bad---it's them dang o's that are hard :) 09/16/2003 21:45:39 EDT   i've forgotten how to write 09/16/2003 21:45:46 EDT   lol 09/16/2003 21:46:21 EDT   i just used dots, was alot easier than those dang x's and o'x 09/16/2003 21:46:28 EDT   :) 09/16/2003 21:46:46 EDT   okay 09/16/2003 21:46:53 EDT   so we have the basics 09/16/2003 21:46:55 EDT   i still cant remember which is up or down between the x's and o's 09/16/2003 21:47:41 EDT   okay 09/16/2003 21:47:45 EDT   as i said 09/16/2003 21:47:55 EDT   the smaller box size and smaller reverlas 09/16/2003 21:48:02 EDT   means more charting 09/16/2003 21:48:12 EDT   and thus shorterm term 09/16/2003 21:48:18 EDT   is this clear 09/16/2003 21:48:23 EDT   y 09/16/2003 21:48:32 EDT   y 09/16/2003 21:48:39 EDT   not as much 'smoothing' 09/16/2003 21:49:05 EDT   for a minute there john i read smooching LOL 09/16/2003 21:49:16 EDT   that too 09/16/2003 21:49:23 EDT   never smooch while doing P&F 09/16/2003 21:49:27 EDT   now 09/16/2003 21:49:39 EDT   which box size and reversals do u use 09/16/2003 21:49:47 EDT   well it depnds on several factors 09/16/2003 21:49:49 EDT   1) 09/16/2003 21:50:00 EDT   how voliltile a market is 09/16/2003 21:50:02 EDT   2) 09/16/2003 21:50:14 EDT   User [pat] joined forum from 63.164.20.59 09/16/2003 21:50:16 EDT   ok, question...doesn p & f usually constructed from end of day cgarts? 09/16/2003 21:50:20 EDT   how short term or longer term u want it 09/16/2003 21:50:28 EDT   hi everyone 09/16/2003 21:51:04 EDT   User [Joe K] joined forum from 172.129.250.90 09/16/2003 21:51:18 EDT   it depnd son how u want to contruct them longer term or dhorter term 09/16/2003 21:51:33 EDT   if u have a box size and reveral that is large sometime eod may work 09/16/2003 21:51:45 EDT   but if u go utside the paramters u need intraday data 09/16/2003 21:52:00 EDT   well tom, you can use closes if you wish or if you have to, but the most accurrant data to use is tick data 09/16/2003 21:52:31 EDT   dang, been hanging around gary's class too long, i'm typing like him now 09/16/2003 21:52:35 EDT   LOL 09/16/2003 21:52:43 EDT   ok, in the futures mazine about 6 months a go Itheir was some p & f on the intriday but I didn't know what I was loking at does any body remember that issue? 09/16/2003 21:53:05 EDT   happens greg 09/16/2003 21:53:18 EDT   p and f is dependant on the box and reversals 09/16/2003 21:53:24 EDT   they were referring to 5 min closes or some other time frame closing price 09/16/2003 21:53:27 EDT   so usind eod may not always work 09/16/2003 21:55:22 EDT   so if we have tick data should we use that no matter what box size or reversal amount? 09/16/2003 21:56:02 EDT   well, with alot of programs you can change the box size and reversal while using tick data 09/16/2003 21:56:07 EDT   as far as i know 09/16/2003 21:56:15 EDT   right 09/16/2003 21:56:25 EDT   so ones needs to play with the box size 09/16/2003 21:56:40 EDT   and reveral size to get the ones that are better suitted for them 09/16/2003 21:57:11 EDT   i sent many differnt kinds of charts with p and f 09/16/2003 21:57:18 EDT   with differnt box size and reversals 09/16/2003 21:57:21 EDT   so u can se 09/16/2003 21:57:41 EDT   lets start those 09/16/2003 21:57:48 EDT   so no questions on the basics? 09/16/2003 21:58:46 EDT   okay 09/16/2003 21:59:01 EDT   take out the bond charts 09/16/2003 21:59:07 EDT   both p and f and bar 09/16/2003 22:00:21 EDT   i used a 2 by 6 for p and f 09/16/2003 22:00:22 EDT   User [kent] joined forum from 67.27.177.239 09/16/2003 22:00:27 EDT   and I sent the 15 minute 09/16/2003 22:00:49 EDT   on the bottom of this chart u do see time 09/16/2003 22:01:02 EDT   but is is a refernce point and not part of p and f 09/16/2003 22:01:30 EDT   look at the heading of the bond chart p and f 09/16/2003 22:01:34 EDT   what does this say 09/16/2003 22:01:40 EDT   p and f paramters? 09/16/2003 22:01:56 EDT   2 x 6 09/16/2003 22:02:05 EDT   p& f..2x8 09/16/2003 22:02:38 EDT   2 by 6 09/16/2003 22:02:43 EDT   tick data 09/16/2003 22:02:49 EDT   soory need to clean glasses..2X6 09/16/2003 22:02:56 EDT   :) 09/16/2003 22:03:15 EDT   to many mikes lemonades..LOL 09/16/2003 22:03:29 EDT   :) 09/16/2003 22:03:32 EDT   LOL tom 09/16/2003 22:03:42 EDT   User [worm] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:03:43 EDT   but got a good buzz 09/16/2003 22:03:57 EDT   where do u have support on the the p and f chart? 09/16/2003 22:04:07 EDT   User [Joe K] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:04:09 EDT   10400 09/16/2003 22:04:56 EDT   right 09/16/2003 22:05:12 EDT   do u all see this 09/16/2003 22:05:18 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:05:19 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:05:20 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:05:24 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:05:25 EDT   yes\\ 09/16/2003 22:05:32 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:05:59 EDT   u can use this as ice 09/16/2003 22:06:11 EDT   now look at the tr 09/16/2003 22:06:18 EDT   from 105-104 09/16/2003 22:06:32 EDT   i drew the lines 09/16/2003 22:06:41 EDT   first 09/16/2003 22:06:49 EDT   what does this 2 by 6 chart represent 09/16/2003 22:07:18 EDT   box size of 2 with a reversal of 6 09/16/2003 22:07:51 EDT   not sure what value the 2 and 6 are though :) lol 09/16/2003 22:08:21 EDT   yes what value does the 2 represent? 09/16/2003 22:08:30 EDT   looks like 2/32 09/16/2003 22:08:37 EDT   right 09/16/2003 22:08:41 EDT   2 ticks 09/16/2003 22:08:46 EDT   and a 6 tick reversal 09/16/2003 22:08:48 EDT   i dont do fractions anymore LOL 09/16/2003 22:08:51 EDT   ok 09/16/2003 22:09:10 EDT   so this sideways TR 09/16/2003 22:09:14 EDT   from 105-1-4 09/16/2003 22:09:20 EDT   104 09/16/2003 22:09:28 EDT   has cause built 09/16/2003 22:10:01 EDT   User [Ron] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:10:41 EDT   we will go over count another time 09/16/2003 22:10:58 EDT   but u can see the supports and the resiatnce levels easily on this chart 09/16/2003 22:11:23 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:11:39 EDT   now look at the 1 by 3 p and f bonds 09/16/2003 22:11:58 EDT   this chart looks diifernt 09/16/2003 22:12:08 EDT   first of all u have more data 09/16/2003 22:12:27 EDT   this chart goes only back 1 day 09/16/2003 22:12:47 EDT   where as the other chart goes bacl over 1 month!!! 09/16/2003 22:12:54 EDT   see this on the bototm 09/16/2003 22:13:03 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:13:03 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:13:09 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:13:35 EDT   this 1 by 3 09/16/2003 22:13:40 EDT   is more chart 09/16/2003 22:13:42 EDT   more noise 09/16/2003 22:13:51 EDT   this is what a day trader would use 09/16/2003 22:14:08 EDT   every 3 ticks reversal u have a column 09/16/2003 22:15:39 EDT   User [Joe K] joined forum from 172.132.8.124 09/16/2003 22:16:21 EDT   so as long as u dont reverse by 3 ticks from the bottom u will have x;s 09/16/2003 22:17:16 EDT   User [dan] joined forum from 207.40.136.115 09/16/2003 22:18:06 EDT   do u see the differnce in box size 09/16/2003 22:18:13 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:18:18 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:18:21 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:18:51 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:20:07 EDT   good 09/16/2003 22:20:18 EDT   more noise smaller box size and reversal 09/16/2003 22:20:32 EDT   look at s and P chart 09/16/2003 22:20:38 EDT   p and f 09/16/2003 22:20:46 EDT   this clearly shows 09/16/2003 22:20:52 EDT   the support and resatnce 09/16/2003 22:20:59 EDT   1018 to 1021 09/16/2003 22:21:03 EDT   see this 09/16/2003 22:21:04 EDT   User [Ron] joined forum from 165.121.227.228 09/16/2003 22:21:11 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:21:35 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:21:45 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:21:52 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:22:21 EDT   so the 1021 is creek 09/16/2003 22:22:25 EDT   ice at 1017 09/16/2003 22:22:33 EDT   then u had a JOC 09/16/2003 22:22:38 EDT   the reacculation 09/16/2003 22:22:45 EDT   see this at 1024 area 09/16/2003 22:22:54 EDT   so support now is 1024 09/16/2003 22:22:56 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:22:56 EDT   User [Ron] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:22:59 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:23:01 EDT   and looks like reaculation again here 09/16/2003 22:23:03 EDT   see this 09/16/2003 22:23:33 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:23:34 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:23:35 EDT   y 09/16/2003 22:24:14 EDT   so u can see markets sometimes better with p and f more clean 09/16/2003 22:25:14 EDT   so markets that are less volitile one should use smaller box size and reversals 09/16/2003 22:25:18 EDT   why is this? 09/16/2003 22:25:26 EDT   I dont see how more clean Gary 09/16/2003 22:25:51 EDT   because with bar charts mnay times u have a lot of noise 09/16/2003 22:25:54 EDT   because if you use a larger box size on less volitile market you could miss important info 09/16/2003 22:26:07 EDT   Can only record what market does, few weeks back, SnP dropped like 12 points in 1 min 09/16/2003 22:26:15 EDT   so.... 09/16/2003 22:26:19 EDT   u may have alot os smaller ranges with p and f it gets filtered out 09/16/2003 22:26:23 EDT   same delema 09/16/2003 22:26:48 EDT   I dont see how 09/16/2003 22:26:54 EDT   but thats just me 09/16/2003 22:27:17 EDT   User [Ron] joined forum from 165.121.227.228 09/16/2003 22:27:48 EDT   p&f chart elliminate the inbetween moves that are present on the bar charts 09/16/2003 22:27:48 EDT   look at silver for an example here p and f 09/16/2003 22:27:57 EDT   u see a clear support at 518 09/16/2003 22:28:03 EDT   and resiatnce 524 09/16/2003 22:28:13 EDT   greh what dont u explain this 09/16/2003 22:28:28 EDT   Zack, it kinda difficult to read those charts while standing on your head, but I will get used to the inverted charts 09/16/2003 22:28:37 EDT   greg 09/16/2003 22:28:41 EDT   What I'm saying is, noise or Cause, still is dependent on Price, Bar or PnF same 09/16/2003 22:28:56 EDT   ok, i will try 09/16/2003 22:29:15 EDT   ok, lets take a stock as an example real quick 09/16/2003 22:29:16 EDT   riht joe just another way to look at charts 09/16/2003 22:29:37 EDT   I mean Sup is sup, and Res is Res 09/16/2003 22:30:01 EDT   There is no 1 number important 09/16/2003 22:30:10 EDT   Just ranges 09/16/2003 22:30:10 EDT   on a stock you can look at a 1x1 p&f chart 09/16/2003 22:30:32 EDT   I didn't know that, thanks 09/16/2003 22:30:38 EDT   the figure chart will only record the whole dollar numbers when they are hit or exceeded 09/16/2003 22:30:53 EDT   do you use the spread in your trade also 09/16/2003 22:31:12 EDT   on the bar chart you have all kinds of data between the whole numbers that is not present on the p&f charts 09/16/2003 22:31:21 EDT   do you use the spread in your trading also 09/16/2003 22:32:13 EDT   so, in this case it elliminates alot of information that you may not want to look at 09/16/2003 22:32:22 EDT   same with any p&f chart 09/16/2003 22:32:31 EDT   the main purpose for p and is count 09/16/2003 22:32:56 EDT   the key is to find the ballance between elliminating the garbage and still being able to see the usefull data 09/16/2003 22:33:32 EDT   sometimes u can use it for support or resiatnce 09/16/2003 22:33:55 EDT   if you make a p&f chart that has too large of a reversal or too big a box you can elliminate usefull TR's or supp/resis areas 09/16/2003 22:34:21 EDT   and as a result that will interfere with the counts that you take off the chart 09/16/2003 22:34:33 EDT   and thereby skew your taret area 09/16/2003 22:35:10 EDT   so, it will take practice to figure out what "size" p&f chart you want to use 09/16/2003 22:35:17 EDT   any questions? 09/16/2003 22:35:59 EDT   didn't Wyckoff himself use a certain type? 09/16/2003 22:36:04 EDT   does that help or is it still totally greek? 09/16/2003 22:36:10 EDT   how do you determine counts from chart 09/16/2003 22:36:13 EDT   yes he did john 09/16/2003 22:36:16 EDT   he did john 09/16/2003 22:36:25 EDT   and thats what i followed for 10 yrs 09/16/2003 22:36:33 EDT   seems I read that 09/16/2003 22:36:44 EDT   i dont have much experience with the other types of p&f chart 09/16/2003 22:36:47 EDT   but forgot which 09/16/2003 22:37:06 EDT   he used a 1x1 chart 09/16/2003 22:37:10 EDT   or 3x3 09/16/2003 22:37:12 EDT   how does the Wyckoff version differ? 09/16/2003 22:37:14 EDT   or 5x5 09/16/2003 22:37:21 EDT   or 100x100 09/16/2003 22:37:29 EDT   always even - 09/16/2003 22:37:35 EDT   the box size and reversal were always the same 09/16/2003 22:37:44 EDT   AND he also 09/16/2003 22:37:44 EDT   ok, ty 09/16/2003 22:37:54 EDT   no one uses it the pure wyckfoff way 09/16/2003 22:37:56 EDT   had it setup 09/16/2003 22:37:57 EDT   but he dealt with just stocks, right 09/16/2003 22:38:13 EDT   where you could have an x and o in the same column 09/16/2003 22:38:35 EDT   right kent 09/16/2003 22:38:35 EDT   i think so kent as much as i remember 09/16/2003 22:38:44 EDT   k 09/16/2003 22:38:50 EDT   so, with wyckoff 09/16/2003 22:38:57 EDT   if you were going up 09/16/2003 22:39:07 EDT   had a reversal of one tick 09/16/2003 22:39:09 EDT   User [Guest2] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:39:17 EDT   then a new column was created 09/16/2003 22:39:29 EDT   but then if you continued up after that 09/16/2003 22:39:38 EDT   you stayed in that same column 09/16/2003 22:39:49 EDT   and continued up from there 09/16/2003 22:39:57 EDT   User [Ron] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:40:04 EDT   let me say something important 09/16/2003 22:40:11 EDT   please 09/16/2003 22:40:17 EDT   go ahead gary 09/16/2003 22:40:22 EDT   the main reason for p and f is for the most accurate count 09/16/2003 22:40:45 EDT   it can be used like a bar chart for support and resiatnce 09/16/2003 22:40:57 EDT   I use it but not alot 09/16/2003 22:41:03 EDT   becaus eI can find good count 09/16/2003 22:41:10 EDT   with bar charts 09/16/2003 22:41:27 EDT   but to get the most accurate count point and figure is importnt 09/16/2003 22:42:13 EDT   but is is alot of work 09/16/2003 22:42:14 EDT   also remember that gary has had alot of experience in the markets and learned how to get count off a bar chart, that is not something that is always easy to do 09/16/2003 22:42:19 EDT   to get this data many times 09/16/2003 22:42:27 EDT   I prefer Bar myself for counts 09/16/2003 22:42:28 EDT   but it is the most accurate way to get count 09/16/2003 22:42:29 EDT   p&f charts are the best way to get counts 09/16/2003 22:42:47 EDT   good point greg 09/16/2003 22:42:55 EDT   and i think many wont do p and f 09/16/2003 22:43:03 EDT   User [kent m] joined forum from 67.27.178.149 09/16/2003 22:43:09 EDT   as most do nt do charts properly with all tiem frames!!! 09/16/2003 22:43:24 EDT   p&f takes some practice and work in learning how to use correctly, just like bar charts 09/16/2003 22:43:27 EDT   but I wanted to introduce it 09/16/2003 22:43:36 EDT   Lets say you get a count, an absolute perfect accurate count 09/16/2003 22:43:41 EDT   and show u the differnce with bar charts 09/16/2003 22:43:51 EDT   Still dependent on NEXT price move 09/16/2003 22:43:52 EDT   as well as show u how box size and reversals 09/16/2003 22:43:54 EDT   User [Ron] joined forum from 165.121.227.228 09/16/2003 22:44:00 EDT   09/16/2003 22:44:00 EDT   can change the look 09/16/2003 22:44:00 EDT   the count will still be an area joe if calculated correctly 09/16/2003 22:44:06 EDT   from short term to longer term 09/16/2003 22:44:07 EDT   Gary---will you go into detail on how to determine "count" on P&F sometime ? 09/16/2003 22:44:11 EDT   correct ? 09/16/2003 22:44:17 EDT   i can 09/16/2003 22:44:20 EDT   User [kent] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:44:32 EDT   but mosly take the sideasy cause and u can count the p and f within that tr 09/16/2003 22:44:37 EDT   and it givves u count 09/16/2003 22:44:44 EDT   amos has a unquie count 09/16/2003 22:44:49 EDT   which i cant reveal 09/16/2003 22:44:59 EDT   and some have other ways to do it 09/16/2003 22:45:11 EDT   i bascailly use it by counting the sideways move 09/16/2003 22:45:14 EDT   Remember even the most perfectly measured Cause, is just a guidline 09/16/2003 22:45:17 EDT   and then take the count 09/16/2003 22:45:24 EDT   form the lows as min count 09/16/2003 22:45:28 EDT   thats rioght joe 09/16/2003 22:45:29 EDT   and the creek as max count 09/16/2003 22:45:39 EDT   right joe very true 09/16/2003 22:45:44 EDT   thats why it is alot of work 09/16/2003 22:45:58 EDT   and u can get this data from bar charts 09/16/2003 22:46:04 EDT   buit it is more accurate 09/16/2003 22:46:04 EDT   and if you correctly take a count off a chart it give you a target area, not a hard absolute number that will be hit 09/16/2003 22:46:12 EDT   So---I can use my ol "thumb and finger" routine on a P&F as well eh :) 09/16/2003 22:46:15 EDT   u never get a perferct number 09/16/2003 22:46:25 EDT   even though u may get it on the head sometimes 09/16/2003 22:46:27 EDT   Why its not worth the work 09/16/2003 22:46:27 EDT   Those of you interested in p&f might want to check out the Wyckoff Yahoo boards. They went into quite a bit of information. 09/16/2003 22:46:30 EDT   u can zack 09/16/2003 22:46:36 EDT   there are other ways to do this 09/16/2003 22:46:54 EDT   the price may or may not reach the target, and it may go beyond the target range, all it does is give you an area where you should perk up and pay closer attention 09/16/2003 22:47:04 EDT   PRICE is the measure of ALL things 09/16/2003 22:47:05 EDT   hey if we can all do time frames accuratly that would be great 09/16/2003 22:47:25 EDT   That's why I never got into it, Gary. One can just measure off a bar chart and save some time. 09/16/2003 22:47:25 EDT   i think alot was put on the plate tonight 09/16/2003 22:47:31 EDT   any questions on p and f? 09/16/2003 22:47:39 EDT   well shar 09/16/2003 22:47:45 EDT   u can get a count bar chart wise 09/16/2003 22:47:49 EDT   but not as accurate 09/16/2003 22:47:52 EDT   if u take a stock and vary the box size and the reversal size will the counts vary much? 09/16/2003 22:48:01 EDT   the most accurate count is p and f without a doubt 09/16/2003 22:48:19 EDT   I"ll bet I can be just as accurate as any PnF ! :) 09/16/2003 22:48:23 EDT   it will give u longer or shorter count pm 09/16/2003 22:48:32 EDT   User [Ron] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:48:34 EDT   cant joe u may think so but cant 09/16/2003 22:48:37 EDT   With Bar 09/16/2003 22:48:47 EDT   No reason why you cant 09/16/2003 22:48:52 EDT   i mean small variations 09/16/2003 22:48:53 EDT   I agree, Gary. I just spend so much time charting as it is. 09/16/2003 22:49:09 EDT   right shar and that is why few use it based on lack of time 09/16/2003 22:49:22 EDT   Want me to prove why ? 09/16/2003 22:49:27 EDT   wit stocks u can use 1 by 1 09/16/2003 22:49:42 EDT   sound like a challenge Joe, how about tomorrow do count on S&P and we can see which gets closer in the future;0 09/16/2003 22:49:51 EDT   Anytime 09/16/2003 22:49:51 EDT   cant joe p and f most accrate even with bull flgs and bear flags 09/16/2003 22:49:56 EDT   n 09/16/2003 22:50:03 EDT   User [Dick] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:50:12 EDT   didnt we say 1034 was p and f count 09/16/2003 22:50:17 EDT   i would think small variations would give same count 09/16/2003 22:50:19 EDT   and whewre did it go 09/16/2003 22:50:22 EDT   103475 09/16/2003 22:50:28 EDT   u count see this on a bar chart 09/16/2003 22:50:35 EDT   yes Gary and that one was right on! 09/16/2003 22:50:36 EDT   I said 1034 and shorted it there with Bar 09/16/2003 22:50:37 EDT   no PM 09/16/2003 22:50:57 EDT   Did I not ? 09/16/2003 22:51:02 EDT   You saw it 09/16/2003 22:51:03 EDT   becausae th e count longer term gives u differnt data 09/16/2003 22:51:13 EDT   The high came at night 09/16/2003 22:51:16 EDT   did i not tell u 1034 before u saw it on the bar yep 09/16/2003 22:51:25 EDT   1034.75 was high 09/16/2003 22:51:25 EDT   if they dont then some dimentions are more important 09/16/2003 22:51:29 EDT   i gave that number 3 weeks ago 09/16/2003 22:51:41 EDT   Thanks Gary---take care everyone and goodnight 09/16/2003 22:51:43 EDT   u get less data with longer term 09/16/2003 22:51:48 EDT   night zack 09/16/2003 22:51:49 EDT   with box size and reverdsals 09/16/2003 22:51:50 EDT   Gary 1032 to 1037 was the range 09/16/2003 22:51:54 EDT   you guys go at it , nite 09/16/2003 22:51:56 EDT   it will show u diffenrt things 09/16/2003 22:51:59 EDT   User [Zack] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:52:05 EDT   night sal lol 09/16/2003 22:52:07 EDT   u dont get a range with p and f 09/16/2003 22:52:11 EDT   User [sal] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:52:13 EDT   u get a hard number count 09/16/2003 22:52:13 EDT   User [kent m] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:52:24 EDT   but we did alot tonight 09/16/2003 22:52:30 EDT   and we will continue on it 09/16/2003 22:52:49 EDT   gary im talkin small variations 09/16/2003 22:52:49 EDT   i just wanted to introduce u to it as I said I would 09/16/2003 22:53:09 EDT   u mean smaller box size and reversals? 09/16/2003 22:53:29 EDT   slightly different 09/16/2003 22:53:37 EDT   yes 09/16/2003 22:53:44 EDT   User [kris] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:54:03 EDT   User [Dennis] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:54:06 EDT   i wll discuss that tomooorw night about box size 09/16/2003 22:54:13 EDT   little smaller little larger 09/16/2003 22:54:22 EDT   ok 09/16/2003 22:54:28 EDT   User [kris] joined forum from 64.229.130.18 09/16/2003 22:54:33 EDT   No not more tomorrow !!!! crying 09/16/2003 22:54:34 EDT   I will see u all tomooorw I hope tonight elped 09/16/2003 22:54:42 EDT   lo joe 09/16/2003 22:54:46 EDT   User [pat] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:54:46 EDT   joe u saty as I do charts then :)LOL 09/16/2003 22:54:49 EDT   Thx. Gary, You're liable to make me a believer yet. 09/16/2003 22:54:50 EDT   anything but that 09/16/2003 22:54:52 EDT   Nite 09/16/2003 22:54:56 EDT   I will se eu all tomooorw I hoped it helped thank u 09/16/2003 22:54:58 EDT   yes Gary thank you, good night everyone 09/16/2003 22:54:58 EDT   good night 09/16/2003 22:54:59 EDT   LOL gary' 09/16/2003 22:54:59 EDT   lol 09/16/2003 22:55:05 EDT   User [dan] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:55:08 EDT   i try shar 09/16/2003 22:55:10 EDT   thx gary 09/16/2003 22:55:12 EDT   User [Shar] left forum. 09/16/2003 22:55:12 EDT   User [gary fullett] left forum.