02/17/2003 21:02:35 EST User [gary fullett] joined forum from 198.63.240.97 02/17/2003 21:02:53 EST good evening and good holiday 02/17/2003 21:03:15 EST Hi Gary! hope you enjoyed your day off - 02/17/2003 21:03:22 EST Hi Gary 02/17/2003 21:03:27 EST Hi Gary 02/17/2003 21:03:30 EST whats up gary? 02/17/2003 21:04:40 EST telephone must have rung 02/17/2003 21:04:40 EST mm, how much are you paying for end of day -- CQG services? 02/17/2003 21:04:52 EST User [JohnH] joined forum from 68.101.12.27 02/17/2003 21:04:57 EST evening 02/17/2003 21:05:00 EST hi johnh 02/17/2003 21:05:04 EST hi cd 02/17/2003 21:05:09 EST no I am here 02/17/2003 21:05:12 EST no phones 02/17/2003 21:05:17 EST to answer now 02/17/2003 21:05:29 EST cdavid - it came with my end of day Get - i paid for Get program and pay 150 per quarter, i think for download 02/17/2003 21:05:47 EST get? 02/17/2003 21:05:57 EST tonight we will be talking on springs and upthusts 02/17/2003 21:06:01 EST for about 1 hour 02/17/2003 21:06:23 EST ok 02/17/2003 21:06:31 EST k 02/17/2003 21:06:33 EST sounds good 02/17/2003 21:06:36 EST Advanced Get - elliot wave program but ask around for any site that have charting program to see if you can get cqg - i am sure there are some much cheaper 02/17/2003 21:06:42 EST User [Ron] joined forum from 165.121.234.232 02/17/2003 21:06:44 EST Im not sick but not feeling the grestest 02/17/2003 21:06:58 EST User [kris] joined forum from 64.229.140.46 02/17/2003 21:07:00 EST so I will keep it to about an hour 02/17/2003 21:07:06 EST hi ron & kris 02/17/2003 21:07:09 EST thanx -- mm 02/17/2003 21:07:14 EST Hi Gang 02/17/2003 21:07:14 EST ok - go, we cut it short tonight - hope you get to feeling better 02/17/2003 21:07:14 EST good evening. 02/17/2003 21:07:15 EST before I begin any questions? 02/17/2003 21:07:35 EST User [kent] joined forum from 172.172.0.17 02/17/2003 21:07:39 EST Gary, correction in grains 02/17/2003 21:07:46 EST hi kent 02/17/2003 21:07:47 EST I just cut out alot of carbothradtes and my body is adjusting thats all 02/17/2003 21:07:49 EST is it over for the near term 02/17/2003 21:07:54 EST hi john 02/17/2003 21:08:10 EST the february break, that is 02/17/2003 21:08:13 EST I think that we will prbably get a break in the grains maybe late this week 02/17/2003 21:08:19 EST or the fnd week 02/17/2003 21:08:21 EST next week 02/17/2003 21:08:29 EST okay, thanks 02/17/2003 21:08:37 EST gary, are you on the adkins diet? 02/17/2003 21:09:12 EST yes I am kent 02/17/2003 21:09:15 EST It works, I lost almost 50 pounds on it! 02/17/2003 21:09:16 EST how did u guess 02/17/2003 21:09:24 EST u did? 02/17/2003 21:09:25 EST low carbs, I'm on it too 02/17/2003 21:09:37 EST love those proteins - steak, bacon, etc 02/17/2003 21:09:43 EST have lost 40 pounds since oct 02/17/2003 21:09:45 EST what tiem frame? 02/17/2003 21:09:51 EST wow kent great 02/17/2003 21:09:58 EST couple of months 02/17/2003 21:10:02 EST only 100 more to go! 02/17/2003 21:10:10 EST plus weights 02/17/2003 21:10:25 EST not bad for a 60 year "young" fella 02/17/2003 21:10:35 EST not bad at all Ron 02/17/2003 21:10:35 EST Okay lets begin 02/17/2003 21:10:35 EST great ron 02/17/2003 21:10:44 EST i'll put down my jelly dounut now... 02/17/2003 21:10:44 EST kent too 02/17/2003 21:10:52 EST good job RON 02/17/2003 21:11:07 EST lol cd 02/17/2003 21:11:12 EST yep 02/17/2003 21:11:21 EST retire in another 10 years 02/17/2003 21:11:26 EST springs and upthurst 02/17/2003 21:11:43 EST sorry I will lesten carefully 02/17/2003 21:11:55 EST 02/17/2003 21:11:56 EST listen 02/17/2003 21:12:08 EST lesson 02/17/2003 21:12:13 EST we have talked on tradind ranges 02/17/2003 21:12:16 EST lessen 02/17/2003 21:12:31 EST you keep loosen wait and you will lesten too 02/17/2003 21:13:20 EST as much as u wanted or limited? 02/17/2003 21:14:17 EST so in a TR 02/17/2003 21:14:20 EST u have resiatnce 02/17/2003 21:14:23 EST and u have support 02/17/2003 21:15:16 EST the resistance is called creek 02/17/2003 21:15:20 EST the support is called ice 02/17/2003 21:16:36 EST 02/17/2003 21:16:51 EST k 02/17/2003 21:16:52 EST when we get a move above creek this is called a jump over the creek 02/17/2003 21:17:33 EST and when u break support of a tr this is called a breaking of the ice 02/17/2003 21:17:38 EST many times 02/17/2003 21:18:35 EST when u get above the creek area 02/17/2003 21:18:46 EST are U slowing down, Gary?? 02/17/2003 21:18:51 EST and trade above it and close back into the trading range 02/17/2003 21:19:23 EST this is called an upthurst of this trading range 02/17/2003 21:19:32 EST it is desinged to get stops above the creek 02/17/2003 21:19:36 EST to suck in new longs 02/17/2003 21:19:41 EST and take out weak shorts 02/17/2003 21:20:04 EST 'designed' by CM i take it 02/17/2003 21:20:08 EST many times on an upthurst 02/17/2003 21:20:15 EST u will see the volume pick up 02/17/2003 21:20:19 EST due to the stops 02/17/2003 21:20:26 EST but the price range and close is important 02/17/2003 21:21:26 EST if this was a jump over the creek 02/17/2003 21:21:36 EST the market would have shown good price action 02/17/2003 21:22:51 EST so u need to watch the price action 02/17/2003 21:22:58 EST and the close to see if it is an upthurst 02/17/2003 21:23:45 EST can you hear me now? 02/17/2003 21:23:51 EST y 02/17/2003 21:23:51 EST so the upthurst is to get early longs 02/17/2003 21:24:00 EST and buy stops sucked in 02/17/2003 21:24:52 EST so,,, 02/17/2003 21:25:38 EST any questions on upthursts? 02/17/2003 21:26:36 EST so an upthrust is basically a false breakout? 02/17/2003 21:27:03 EST do you divide upthrusts into three types 02/17/2003 21:27:04 EST will the close be in the lower 1/3 of the price bar - or just back in the TR? 02/17/2003 21:27:06 EST yes mg 02/17/2003 21:27:19 EST good q meg 02/17/2003 21:27:40 EST meg good q 02/17/2003 21:27:52 EST the upthurst can be a close just under creek 02/17/2003 21:28:02 EST it generally domnes t close at creek 02/17/2003 21:28:09 EST but a tad under it 02/17/2003 21:28:46 EST thanks gary 02/17/2003 21:28:51 EST is it an upthrust if it spikes several days with closes above TR, then back into range 02/17/2003 21:29:25 EST cdavid 02/17/2003 21:29:28 EST I was getitng there 02/17/2003 21:29:35 EST on a daily chart gnerally 02/17/2003 21:29:44 EST the upthurst happens in 1 day 02/17/2003 21:29:52 EST But sometimes it can take 2 days 02/17/2003 21:31:27 EST 02/17/2003 21:32:32 EST did screen freeze? 02/17/2003 21:32:37 EST Im eher 02/17/2003 21:32:44 EST the screen is slow tonight 02/17/2003 21:32:49 EST for some reason 02/17/2003 21:32:58 EST ice... 02/17/2003 21:33:04 EST so the move above the creek of the TR 02/17/2003 21:33:12 EST then back under iit 02/17/2003 21:33:17 EST it called an upthurst 02/17/2003 21:33:46 EST a move under ice 02/17/2003 21:33:49 EST of the TR 02/17/2003 21:33:54 EST and back above ice is a spring 02/17/2003 21:34:01 EST for those of u that have the CD 02/17/2003 21:34:11 EST there are several types of springs 02/17/2003 21:34:15 EST thats isnt importnat 02/17/2003 21:34:22 EST like number 1 spring 02/17/2003 21:34:24 EST 2 spring 02/17/2003 21:34:43 EST User [M.Martin] left forum. 02/17/2003 21:35:35 EST as long as u understand what they are 02/17/2003 21:35:43 EST the numbers arent imp 02/17/2003 21:35:44 EST k 02/17/2003 21:36:31 EST we must be having some technical diff.s tonight 02/17/2003 21:36:41 EST 02/17/2003 21:36:52 EST snow? 02/17/2003 21:36:59 EST maybe 02/17/2003 21:36:59 EST they are designed to get stops 02/17/2003 21:37:14 EST how does one recognize a spring or a breaking of the ice? 02/17/2003 21:37:25 EST if it comes back or not 02/17/2003 21:37:31 EST light volume 02/17/2003 21:37:50 EST no follow through 02/17/2003 21:38:00 EST the volume and price action ar eimportant 02/17/2003 21:38:08 EST User [M.Martin] joined forum from 68.11.126.200 02/17/2003 21:38:13 EST User [Zack] joined forum from 63.164.166.189 02/17/2003 21:38:16 EST many times 02/17/2003 21:38:19 EST hi zack 02/17/2003 21:38:19 EST Hi folks 02/17/2003 21:38:24 EST Hi Zack! 02/17/2003 21:38:30 EST hi zack, mm 02/17/2003 21:38:40 EST hey ZACK 02/17/2003 21:38:46 EST it would appear hard to be sure thus we wait for retest 02/17/2003 21:39:05 EST ? 02/17/2003 21:39:06 EST peice range is important 02/17/2003 21:39:12 EST and u have to look at volume 02/17/2003 21:39:14 EST and the trend 02/17/2003 21:39:18 EST if the market is bullish 02/17/2003 21:39:25 EST and u r reaccumulating 02/17/2003 21:39:49 EST then it is probbaly a spring 02/17/2003 21:39:58 EST if u had a sc 02/17/2003 21:40:05 EST and u mived up and formed a TR 02/17/2003 21:40:10 EST then it is prob a spring 02/17/2003 21:40:21 EST so many times depending on trend 02/17/2003 21:40:25 EST u will be able to tell 02/17/2003 21:40:31 EST do uptrusts mainly occur after a BC, and springs after SC? 02/17/2003 21:40:32 EST if it is a spring 02/17/2003 21:40:37 EST or a breaking of the ice 02/17/2003 21:40:51 EST many times htye do kent 02/17/2003 21:40:58 EST but u get them all the time 02/17/2003 21:41:01 EST in all tiem frames 02/17/2003 21:41:05 EST there isnt a set rule 02/17/2003 21:41:06 EST ok 02/17/2003 21:41:12 EST but if u had a SC 02/17/2003 21:41:25 EST then u probbaly wont get a breaking of the ice? 02/17/2003 21:41:42 EST k 02/17/2003 21:42:17 EST because after the SC 02/17/2003 21:42:25 EST u r probbaly accumlationg 02/17/2003 21:42:39 EST so u probbaly wont get a breaking of the ice 02/17/2003 21:42:48 EST when accumalating 02/17/2003 21:42:51 EST understand? 02/17/2003 21:42:54 EST y 02/17/2003 21:42:59 EST yes 02/17/2003 21:42:59 EST y 02/17/2003 21:43:02 EST y 02/17/2003 21:43:15 EST good 02/17/2003 21:43:30 EST when u get to creek area 02/17/2003 21:43:36 EST u need to watch the volume 02/17/2003 21:44:19 EST when u get an increase of volume at the top of creek 02/17/2003 21:44:29 EST any have a clue what this could mean? 02/17/2003 21:44:34 EST joc 02/17/2003 21:44:51 EST demand is showing up 02/17/2003 21:45:02 EST sot? 02/17/2003 21:45:03 EST mark up coming? 02/17/2003 21:45:44 EST thsi looks like the mark up pahase generally 02/17/2003 21:45:49 EST it is smal tip off 02/17/2003 21:45:54 EST not alwasy true 02/17/2003 21:45:56 EST ty 02/17/2003 21:46:05 EST all are corrrect 02/17/2003 21:46:43 EST phase c? 02/17/2003 21:46:44 EST if u get small price action 02/17/2003 21:46:49 EST and light volume 02/17/2003 21:47:01 EST many times an upthurst will occur rathe rthan a JOC 02/17/2003 21:47:06 EST and the same with a spring 02/17/2003 21:47:44 EST just have to see price action 02/17/2003 21:47:54 EST and see how the market acts near creek or ice 02/17/2003 21:49:08 EST so wtach the action 02/17/2003 21:49:13 EST at creek and upthrust 02/17/2003 21:49:32 EST so large price action, heavy vol at bot or top of range usually means joc or breaking of ice vs upthrust or spring? 02/17/2003 21:50:19 EST I would say that is more true than not 02/17/2003 21:51:14 EST so the volume and the price action 02/17/2003 21:51:21 EST at creeks and ice are key 02/17/2003 21:51:26 EST as u get more exp 02/17/2003 21:51:36 EST u recognize it 02/17/2003 21:52:42 EST could u have nay suga in the begiining as long as under 20 carbs? 02/17/2003 21:53:00 EST so 02/17/2003 21:53:09 EST the TR is important a sit give su the cause 02/17/2003 21:55:10 EST so questiosn on springs and upthrsut 02/17/2003 21:55:17 EST I am sorry it is slow tonight 02/17/2003 21:55:21 EST im typing 02/17/2003 21:55:24 EST but it is slow 02/17/2003 21:56:28 EST I think the ISP's are having weather problems back east tonight---I know my Sat. service is down 02/17/2003 21:56:59 EST i think at least near chicago zack-- your right 02/17/2003 21:57:21 EST in the snow areas anyway 02/17/2003 21:57:26 EST no probs here 02/17/2003 21:57:35 EST so u know what a spring and upthurst is 02/17/2003 21:57:40 EST ans what is designed to do? 02/17/2003 21:57:51 EST ya 02/17/2003 21:57:54 EST y 02/17/2003 21:57:56 EST yes 02/17/2003 21:57:58 EST y 02/17/2003 21:57:59 EST yes 02/17/2003 21:58:00 EST y 02/17/2003 21:58:10 EST i will send charts 02/17/2003 21:58:12 EST take out stops 02/17/2003 21:58:18 EST on this as class moves on and u can see 02/17/2003 21:58:26 EST it is desinged to take out stoips 02/17/2003 21:58:33 EST and to get weak longs or shorts in' 02/17/2003 21:58:47 EST the cm doesnt like 02/17/2003 21:59:02 EST comapny 02/17/2003 21:59:12 EST so these are ways in which he shakes them out 02/17/2003 22:00:08 EST thats what springs and upthrusts are 02/17/2003 22:00:11 EST now 02/17/2003 22:00:19 EST how if u are long at support 02/17/2003 22:00:38 EST how do u avoid not being stopped out on a spring? 02/17/2003 22:00:53 EST by having stop below weekly support 02/17/2003 22:01:01 EST u need to kepe the stop away from that area 02/17/2003 22:01:08 EST if youe loss is largers so be it 02/17/2003 22:01:21 EST but more times than not a close stop there will be a spring 02/17/2003 22:01:25 EST and not a breaking of the ice 02/17/2003 22:01:31 EST if u identified accumuation 02/17/2003 22:02:05 EST dca u right 02/17/2003 22:02:18 EST if u buy daily support stop under weekly support 02/17/2003 22:02:25 EST this should prevent a spring 02/17/2003 22:02:39 EST if it gets to weekly suppoprt it was probbaly a break of the ice 02/17/2003 22:03:12 EST what rule would an intra-day trader use? 02/17/2003 22:03:26 EST depends on the time frame intraday 02/17/2003 22:03:38 EST if u buy on a 5 min chart stop under 30 min support 02/17/2003 22:03:58 EST u should place stops under a tiem frame 02/17/2003 22:04:00 EST if you buy 1 minute then stop under 5 minute? 02/17/2003 22:04:04 EST that if u get hit u r just wrong 02/17/2003 22:04:21 EST understand? 02/17/2003 22:04:26 EST y 02/17/2003 22:04:27 EST y 02/17/2003 22:04:30 EST y 02/17/2003 22:04:30 EST y 02/17/2003 22:04:34 EST yes 02/17/2003 22:04:40 EST I would probbaly place it under 1o min support mg 02/17/2003 22:04:51 EST thanks 02/17/2003 22:05:15 EST does tnat make sense 02/17/2003 22:05:19 EST y 02/17/2003 22:05:21 EST y 02/17/2003 22:05:24 EST y 02/17/2003 22:05:26 EST y 02/17/2003 22:05:27 EST yes 02/17/2003 22:05:36 EST wyckoff isnt so concerned about the money lost many times but the desion to make proper trades 02/17/2003 22:05:48 EST if u make a proper trade your risk is small 02/17/2003 22:06:17 EST when i send charts 02/17/2003 22:06:20 EST u will see 02/17/2003 22:06:27 EST how springs and upthrust work 02/17/2003 22:06:33 EST and why they are significant 02/17/2003 22:07:39 EST good 02/17/2003 22:08:12 EST questions? 02/17/2003 22:08:55 EST spring and upthrusts are important 02/17/2003 22:08:59 EST as it is the way the cm 02/17/2003 22:09:01 EST shakes u out 02/17/2003 22:09:26 EST he knows that most people due to money place stops just under supports or resiatance 02/17/2003 22:10:20 EST thanks, gary! Have grandbabies this week so have to go - keep well! 02/17/2003 22:10:31 EST nite, mm 02/17/2003 22:10:33 EST nite mm 02/17/2003 22:10:39 EST nite mm 02/17/2003 22:10:45 EST is it good to sell the top of the upthrust? 02/17/2003 22:10:49 EST nite mm 02/17/2003 22:10:55 EST User [M.Martin] left forum. 02/17/2003 22:11:02 EST how do u know it is an upthurst? 02/17/2003 22:11:08 EST if it closes back in the TR 02/17/2003 22:11:13 EST u can sell for a day or so 02/17/2003 22:11:48 EST ty 02/17/2003 22:11:52 EST understand? 02/17/2003 22:11:55 EST Sid---how do you know when it is a top ??? To be an upthrust it must come back into the TR 02/17/2003 22:12:28 EST gotcha ty 02/17/2003 22:12:38 EST good :) 02/17/2003 22:13:03 EST okay any other questions 02/17/2003 22:13:07 EST sounds like you only know its an upthrust or spring after it occurs 02/17/2003 22:13:17 EST next week I will go over JOC and breaking of the ice 02/17/2003 22:13:29 EST and what to do 02/17/2003 22:13:34 EST Right cdavid 02/17/2003 22:13:36 EST and the best time to buy wyckoff wise 02/17/2003 22:13:44 EST thus wait for retest 02/17/2003 22:13:52 EST u can assume that the market spring 02/17/2003 22:13:59 EST and u can buy this spring 02/17/2003 22:14:03 EST but this comes woith exp 02/17/2003 22:14:12 EST a sprin is more likly in an uptrend 02/17/2003 22:14:22 EST so u may rsk buying a spring 02/17/2003 22:14:53 EST but selling an upthrust isn't as good? 02/17/2003 22:15:04 EST same as a spring but opposite 02/17/2003 22:15:16 EST if u are in a doewn trend 02/17/2003 22:15:26 EST u can sell an upthrsut wiht a stop 02/17/2003 22:15:39 EST ok but which is more likely to head in opp directiobn -- or are they same 02/17/2003 22:16:12 EST dpends o the trend john 02/17/2003 22:16:14 EST i.e. mkt moving down to lower limit of TR after upthrust 02/17/2003 22:16:23 EST or heading up to upper limit after spring 02/17/2003 22:16:24 EST if u have a down trend u can sell an uptjrust 02/17/2003 22:16:33 EST if u r in an uptrned 02/17/2003 22:16:36 EST u can buy a spring 02/17/2003 22:16:40 EST most of the time 02/17/2003 22:16:53 EST u by stopport at the bottom of the TR 02/17/2003 22:16:59 EST if u think accumation 02/17/2003 22:17:22 EST then palce stop under theweekly lows on a daily chart so u dont get jabbed out 02/17/2003 22:17:31 EST if the trend is down 02/17/2003 22:17:40 EST it may not be a spring but a sign of weakness 02/17/2003 22:17:54 EST because u break support in a down trend 02/17/2003 22:18:12 EST understasnd? 02/17/2003 22:18:14 EST thats imp? 02/17/2003 22:18:17 EST think so 02/17/2003 22:18:21 EST y 02/17/2003 22:18:24 EST yes 02/17/2003 22:18:25 EST k 02/17/2003 22:18:27 EST y 02/17/2003 22:18:28 EST y 02/17/2003 22:18:38 EST good :) 02/17/2003 22:18:52 EST any other questioons? 02/17/2003 22:19:06 EST john springs accour more in an uptrnd 02/17/2003 22:19:13 EST and an upthrust mor ein down trneds 02/17/2003 22:19:19 EST to shake out people 02/17/2003 22:19:22 EST IC 02/17/2003 22:19:24 EST u get them all the time 02/17/2003 22:19:29 EST but the more sig ones 02/17/2003 22:19:53 EST :) 02/17/2003 22:20:02 EST I will send charts tomooorw 02/17/2003 22:20:09 EST any charts u would like me to send? 02/17/2003 22:20:26 EST sugar and bean oil 02/17/2003 22:21:00 EST protiens & carbs 02/17/2003 22:21:05 EST Live Cattle, Rice, Sugar, CD -- thanx everyone, see ya tomorrow nite, good luck without carbs gary! 02/17/2003 22:21:08 EST okay meg will do 02/17/2003 22:21:14 EST trying ;) 02/17/2003 22:21:26 EST I will se eu all toimoorow night 02/17/2003 22:21:30 EST thanks gary hope you feel better! 02/17/2003 22:21:30 EST User [cdavid] left forum. 02/17/2003 22:21:31 EST thx gary 02/17/2003 22:21:31 EST do upthrusts and springs happen more on daily charts then smaller time frames? 02/17/2003 22:21:32 EST thank you Gary :) 02/17/2003 22:21:33 EST thanx gary 02/17/2003 22:21:37 EST User [dca] left forum. 02/17/2003 22:21:42 EST happen all the time MG 02/17/2003 22:21:47 EST thanks 02/17/2003 22:21:54 EST They happen in all time frames mg 02/17/2003 22:22:00 EST lol, sid 02/17/2003 22:22:22 EST User [meg] left forum. 02/17/2003 22:22:25 EST ty good class gary .............ty kent nite all 02/17/2003 22:22:32 EST night 02/17/2003 22:22:35 EST User [gary fullett] left forum.