User [gary fullett /204.233.213.78] joined forum on Thu Dec 06 21:00:09 EST 2001
<CTN> Hello Zack
<George> Hi Gary
<Zack> Hi Gary
<Jairo> hi Gary
<gary fullett> good evening
<gary fullett> sorry about last night
<CTN> used to go a lot when I was a kid
<George> I'm 44 and still a kid
<CTN> lol
<CTN> hey you have 2 years on me
<gary fullett> I am 42 as well
<gary fullett> we will begin in a few minutes
<CTN> and I thought yall was old men
<CTN> lol
<George> My wife has been married to a kid for 26 years
User [J. Livermore /64.240.52.230] joined forum on Thu Dec 06 21:02:08 EST 2001
<CTN> great George...most don't last that long
<George> lol
<George> got married when we were 18
<gary fullett> any questions?
<gary fullett> since I wasnt here last night
<George> yes cattle vol today?
<gary fullett> should I do wyckoff priinciples
<Zack> Heck--I've been married for over 42 years--all you young whippersnapers :):)
<gary fullett> or spreads options
<gary fullett> your choice
<Jairo> wyckoff
<gary fullett> fairly good today george
<J. Livermore> Gi for it
<George> wyckoff
<George> thanks
<gary fullett> okay
<gary fullett> any specific topic
<George> how old did you say you were Zack?
<Zack> Weeeelllll--Mathusla was a good freind of mine back in the good ol' days :)
<George> Gary?
<gary fullett> yes
<George> Does a spring usually happen at the very lows in a market even on monthly
<gary fullett> springs happen
<gary fullett> at the bottom of a trading range
<gary fullett> when u have a horizontal trading range
<gary fullett> and u spring the lows
<gary fullett> of this range
<gary fullett> or pentrated the lows at the bottom of a trading range
<gary fullett> and close within that range that is a spring
<George> so mothle cattle for last month could not be a spring because of no trading range correct?
<George> monthly
<gary fullett> correct
<gary fullett> probabaly was a sc
<gary fullett> and now the AR
<gary fullett> and should retest
<George> do you realize what just happened?
<George> gained more insight clap clap
<gary fullett> whats that?
<CTN> explain George
<Jairo>
<George> I mean i learned more
<gary fullett> good
<George> just now
<CTN> oh ok
User [firedog /208.188.27.142] joined forum on Thu Dec 06 21:09:56 EST 2001
<gary fullett> any other questions?
<gary fullett> hi firedog
<Zack> Hi firedog
<J. Livermore>
<firedog> hi
<gary fullett> okay lets begin
<gary fullett> I want to talk on wyckoff stuff
<gary fullett> but I want to talk more on refinements
<gary fullett> I will explain as we talk on several topics
<George> k
<gary fullett> when U have amrket that is very bullish
<gary fullett> market
<gary fullett> the generall correction is about 1 -3 days if the market is vey bullish
<gary fullett> if the market is trending but not overly bullish
<gary fullett> the correction is generally 3-5 days
<gary fullett> I am going to tell u several things that will help with trading
<George> to the downside?
<gary fullett> when I say bullish scnerio the same is true for the bearish case as well
<Zack> Either way George--depends on direction of trend
<George> k
<gary fullett> if the trend is down 1-3 rally
<gary fullett> or 3-5 day
<gary fullett> the oppoiste is true when I give all examples
<George> k
<CTN>
<gary fullett> so far so good?
<gary fullett> q?
<firedog> n
<George> n
<CTN> n
<gary fullett> good
<Jairo> y
<Jairo> n
<gary fullett> :)LOL
<J. Livermore> n
<gary fullett> as I told u it is the REACTION from support
<gary fullett> or ressiatnce that is important not just the fact
<gary fullett> that it is support or resiatnce
<gary fullett> when U have an uptrend
<gary fullett> and then u have a corection Like copper
<gary fullett> and that correction was a sharp break
<gary fullett> it just cant go up and make news highs
<gary fullett> it will need to prepartion
<gary fullett> and build cause to make a run up
<gary fullett> so be patient
<gary fullett> like cotton
<gary fullett> as well
<gary fullett> the reason for this is simple
<gary fullett> when u have a shapr break
<gary fullett> in an uptrend
<gary fullett> this will induce bearish
<gary fullett> or selling
<gary fullett> and will be a fight between bulls and bears
User [Wombat /144.138.87.75] joined forum on Thu Dec 06 21:17:46 EST 2001
<Wombat> hi all
<gary fullett> so there will be a fight and it needs to build cause for a move
<George> hey wb
<Zack> G'day Wombat
<gary fullett> this is like the shaking out processes
<gary fullett> hi wombat
<firedog> hello wombat
<Wombat> gary, George, Zack, firedog hows things
<gary fullett> my point is
<gary fullett> markets need time to prepare and build cause
<gary fullett> why do markets need to do this
<gary fullett> why cant they just move and make new highs after making new lows?
<J. Livermore> CM need to buy
<George> have to go be right back hospital called
<gary fullett> k george
<gary fullett> the reason the market cant just go up and down make new highs and lows is simple
<CTN>
User [Greg /206.58.160.48] joined forum on Thu Dec 06 21:20:28 EST 2001
<Jairo>
<gary fullett> it is because the cm uses the News to make the market move
<Greg> hi all
<Zack> Hey Greg
<gary fullett> and u cant just make bullish news
<gary fullett> then bearish news
<CTN> hello Greg
<gary fullett> the cm has alot of contracts
<gary fullett> so he isnt able to buy 10,000 contracts
<gary fullett> then sell 10,000 contracts
<gary fullett> so easily
<gary fullett> hi greg
User [skep /64.243.70.131] joined forum on Thu Dec 06 21:21:35 EST 2001
<gary fullett> hi skep
<Zack> Hi skep
<Greg> hi skep
<skep> hi Gary
<gary fullett> so the cm just cant swing contracts
<CTN> hello skep
<gary fullett> he has to have a campighn
<skep> hi y'all
<gary fullett> and he needs to accmuulate or distribute
<gary fullett> before he can mark up or mark down
<firedog>
<Greg>
<gary fullett> in order for the cm to mark up prices
<gary fullett> he needs to news to become more bullish
<gary fullett> so funds and specs
<gary fullett> can help him move it up
<gary fullett> AFTER
<gary fullett> he has accumulated his line
<gary fullett> or postion
<Greg> and its our job to follow on his lead till we can lead ourselves :)
<gary fullett> that is why markets just dont move at random
<gary fullett> and they need the "news" to move it
<firedog> ok
<gary fullett> u follow what the cm does BY price action and volume ONLY
<Jairo>
<Greg> but the FC gives an idea of the potential distance of the move
<gary fullett> questions so far?
<gary fullett> FC?
<Jairo> figure chart
<Greg> figure chart
User [mike /24.7.3.20] joined forum on Thu Dec 06 21:26:24 EST 2001
<J. Livermore>
<Zack> Hi Mike
<CTN>
<mike> hi
<Wombat>
<Greg> when the count is close to being filled u should start thinking about getting out, right?
<gary fullett> that is what i thought greg
<Greg> hi mike
<gary fullett> but I wanted to clke sure for class:)
<gary fullett> Hi mike
User [Joe K /172.170.31.97] joined forum on Thu Dec 06 21:27:17 EST 2001
<gary fullett> correct greg
<gary fullett> hi joe
<Zack> Yo Joe
<Joe K> Hi Gary Scoot Zacky hey guys !
<CTN> hello Joe
<firedog> yo
<mike> longtime never been here
<Greg> hi joe
<gary fullett> welcome mike
<mike> Hi gary
<Joe K> Topic ?
<gary fullett> it is an open forum
<Greg> cool
<gary fullett> ask questions any time u have any
<Greg> :)
<gary fullett> I am talking on market generalizations about wyckoff joe
<Greg> gary, we had a discussion about LC weekly last night
<gary fullett> as U learn more about wyckoff
<mike> open forum?
<gary fullett> the work becomes harder ask Joe :)
<Joe K> I want exact prices for 12 commodity's tomorrow, thankyou ! :)
<Joe K> lol
<gary fullett> okay greg
<gary fullett> what about it?
<J. Livermore> open or close?
<Greg> a ? about the action 3 weeks ago
<gary fullett> thrusday night is your night
<Joe K> lol
<gary fullett> to complet the weekly discussion
<Greg> some were saying it was a SC
<gary fullett> probably was
<Greg> I didn't agree
<Greg> because of vol
<Greg> ?
<skep>
<CTN>
<mike> .
<gary fullett> I think the volume was cliamtic
<Zack> Based on the monthly chart and the position of the price range--I tended to agree with Greg
<gary fullett> but the action was on the daily
<gary fullett> the weekly wasnt an SC
<firedog>
<gary fullett> on the wekly and montly chart in cattle NOTHING happmned
<mike> SC?
<Wombat>
<gary fullett> sellig climax mike
<Zack> Selling Climax mike
<Greg> thanks gary
<mike> ahh k
<Greg> to me I just didn't get that panic feeling from looking at the chart
<Joe K> If it was a Daily, retest isnt proportionate
<gary fullett> u have to remeber time frames
<Greg> know what I'm talking about?
<mike> if it is open from can I ask question?
<gary fullett> the weekly and montly No
<Joe K> Why I said perhaps clammatic to Weekly
<gary fullett> but the daily I would think it was
<Zack> Go ahead mike
<gary fullett> I understand joe what u meant
<gary fullett> sure Mike
<gary fullett> please ask
<Zack> Questions are always welcome :)
<Jairo>
<Greg> I know the vol was big and agree that but it just doesn't look like a climax to me
<mike> about trminal trust and shakeout
<Joe K> Gary, let me ask you this, why could it have not been a Weekly SC ?
<gary fullett> okay mike
<Greg> cat got your tongue mike? :)
<mike> I have difficulties to identified shakeout specially on retest of establishedlow
<mike> I'm type veryyyy slowly
<mike> :(
<gary fullett> joe
<gary fullett> the market went under support at the 6500 on the weekly
<Greg> no problem, more practice mike :)
<Zack> That's OK Mike--I read verryyy slowly :)
<gary fullett> I think it may have been a spring on the weekly
<gary fullett> when it traded 6200 area
<gary fullett> the monthly it held trendline support
<gary fullett> on the weekly
<gary fullett> it probably was a spring of the 6500 area
<gary fullett> I can see why u could say SC
<CTN> I thought you said a spring had to be in a trading range
<gary fullett> on the daily probably was a sc
<gary fullett> yes ctn
<gary fullett> cattle has a weekly trading range 6500 to 7200 area
<CTN> k
<gary fullett> atually 70 area
<gary fullett> the lows of aug 2000 was 6500 area
<mike> because usually at established low/high levels most of a trader's put their stops
<gary fullett> correct mike
<Joe K> So a Weekly SC you would look for clammatic push under 57.50 ?
<gary fullett> did u ask your question mike/
<J. Livermore>
<gary fullett> yes joe
<Joe K> ok
<CTN> why 57.50\
<Joe K> Weekly support, longer term
<Greg>
<gary fullett> next week
<mike> this was a part of the question
<Joe K> double bottom in 1999
<gary fullett> I will send all time frames of a chart again
<gary fullett> probably cattle
<gary fullett> so u can see all time frames
<Greg> cool
<mike> maybe I didn't specify as a question
<gary fullett> and U can see the difernt principles based on differnt time frames
<mike> I'll try again
<CTN> ok Joe...I didn't print out a chart from that area
<gary fullett> mike
<firedog>
<Greg>
<gary fullett> do u want to know the differnce btween terminal shakout
<gary fullett> and shakout
<Joe K> me either, had old wrinkled one handy, lol
<CTN> lol
<Greg> lol joe
<Jairo>
<skep>
<Joe K> Speghetti stains on it
<Joe K> lol
<gary fullett> is that your q mike?
<mike> I understand what it means but sometimes have difficulties to recognize it
<gary fullett> franco american joe
<J. Livermore>
<Joe K> yesu
<Greg> do you see wine on it as well joe?
<gary fullett> may I ask mike what u understan it to mean
<Joe K> No, but could use a glass
<Joe K> :)
<Greg> pass the bottle joe
<Greg> :)
<Joe K> But Daily, Gary, whats the longest time youve seen for a Daily retest of Daily SC ?
<mike> way I understand that shakeouts would be when importantlow established
<gary fullett> whew joe weeks
<Joe K> Serious ?
<gary fullett> a terminal shakout is generally quicker
<Greg> wow gary, thats a while
<gary fullett> it is almost semantics
<gary fullett> it could be 10 trading days or so
<gary fullett> sure whjy not
<Joe K> This Cattle then, is like Pound was at 36 earlier this year
<gary fullett> joe asked what is the longest time frame I seen
<gary fullett> not the norm
<Joe K> Tricky one
<mike> and CM drive stock down just below that low to catch a weak sellers and staps
<gary fullett> that is true
<gary fullett> mike
<mike> :)
<CTN> q
<Greg>
<gary fullett> does anyone know what the term terminal means?
<Jairo>
<Joe K> Ending
<gary fullett> not in wyckoff but in general
<firedog> y
<Zack> The endd :)
<Joe K> Dieing
<gary fullett> right Joe
<Jairo> ending
<gary fullett> and jairo
<mike> it in he is older version
<gary fullett> so a terminal shakout many times is quick ending action
<gary fullett> right mike
<gary fullett> I am aware of it
<Greg> the move happens so fast that no one has a chance to get in except if they pay a higher price for the stock helping the move go higher
<gary fullett> right
<mike> if I'm not mistaken section 22
<gary fullett> a shakout hapens more often
<gary fullett> and it can be tested
<gary fullett> a a terminal shakout generally isnt
<Greg> it is a bit slower
<skep>
<J. Livermore>
<gary fullett> a terminal shakeout occurs generally 1 time
<mike> especially intraday shakeouts
<gary fullett> where a shaoutout can be several times in my exp
<gary fullett> right
<gary fullett> but for the most part mike they are simliar
<Wombat>
<mike> second part of my question is how to identify when shakeout and when trend reversal
<Greg> you want to get in on both if you can
<gary fullett> for the most part they are simliar price actions
<gary fullett> now a good q mike :)
<gary fullett> lets say u have a selling climax
<CTN>
<gary fullett> the beans have a sc at 400
<Zack> My understanding is that a Selling Climax is the first move in a trend reversal
<gary fullett> then u have an AR
<mike> at least everybody understand now what I am talking about
<gary fullett> true zack
<gary fullett> but preliamry demand
<gary fullett> is the first sign
<Greg> y mike
<gary fullett> then the SC tells u the down is over
<gary fullett> the AR takes u to 440
<gary fullett> then u have a retest
<gary fullett> to the 410 area
<gary fullett> and develop a range
<mike> because when significant low is established decline below the low indication of continuation of downtrend for example
<gary fullett> between 410 and 440
<gary fullett> and this range is established
<gary fullett> lets say for 2 months
<gary fullett> so far u with me?
<mike> and trader have to close his long position below that low
<CTN> how close to the sc does the retest have to get to
<gary fullett> it can trade to the SC
<gary fullett> under the sc
<CTN> no set eriod
<gary fullett> or just above it ctn
<Greg>
<gary fullett> u need to watch the price action and volume
<CTN> no set limit
<gary fullett> But generally
<gary fullett> it is above the sc
<skep>
<gary fullett> so if u get a move under 410
<gary fullett> lets say to the 405 area
<mike> btw I am not speaking about monthly weekly in daily chart my concern five-minute chart
<gary fullett> this is a hsakout or spring of the 410 bottom support
<gary fullett> it is the same mike
<gary fullett> time frames work in all wyckoff principles
<mike> I do which the" tape" sometimes a lot of noise
<gary fullett> 5 minute is a daily just speeded up
<mike> Ino only one to make it clear
<firedog>
<mike> one=want to
<Jairo>
<gary fullett> so the market goes under 410
<gary fullett> and closes back above 410
<gary fullett> this is a spring
<mike> can you elaborate a little about price and volume
<gary fullett> but because we have the sc at 400
<gary fullett> the trend is UP!!!!!!
<gary fullett> so this is a spring
<Greg> yea!!!
<Greg> :)
<Zack> Volume on the spring will be less then the volume on the Selling Climax
<J. Livermore>
<Greg> even vol off the bottom Zack
<Greg> ?
<gary fullett> the sc is the highest volume greg
<gary fullett> a spring can increase in volume
<gary fullett> but it isnt as high as the sc greg
<mike> if this is answer to me -and its little bit more complicated Zack
<Greg> ok, thanks Gary
<Joe K>
<Zack> By definition--a selling climax has the heaviest volume of the donwmove--spring volume will vary Greg
<gary fullett> so the trend MIKE is Up due to the SC
<gary fullett> correct zack
<Greg> thanks Zack
<gary fullett> after this range is established
<gary fullett> this is accumaltion
<gary fullett> so the trade under 410
<gary fullett> then back above it
<gary fullett> is a spring
<gary fullett> a terminal shake out can occur if the SC is taken out
<mike> sometimes difficult to recognize is that accumulation or distribution
<gary fullett> lets say at 396
<gary fullett> this would be a terminal shakout
<gary fullett> because u went Under the sc
<gary fullett> got the stops
<mike> NASDAQ stocks have a lot of noise
User [George /65.69.98.138] joined forum on Thu Dec 06 21:56:57 EST 2001
<gary fullett> and this was the ending action after the sc
<gary fullett> on a retest
<CTN>
<Greg> i was about to ask that gary :)
<Greg> thanks
<gary fullett> so a terminal shakout would be
<gary fullett> a trade under the sc
<gary fullett> and a close above it
<firedog>
<gary fullett> a shakout would be a move under a trading range
<gary fullett> and back into
<gary fullett> similar but a tad differnt
<gary fullett> as I said symantics
<CTN> gotcha...only if I can let it soak in
<Greg> and speed
<mike> y
<J. Livermore>
<George>
<mike> but you don't know will it to go back or not
<Zack> Patience CTN---it will all fall into place given time and work :)
<mike> into the range
<Joe K> Wife gave me a terminal shakout once
<Joe K> :)
<Greg> lol Joe
<mike> lol
<CTN> Gary needs a Vcr tape so I can watch it a few hundred times
<Greg> just reread the archive CTN :)
<Joe K> Gary could you touch on sharpening of the downward thrust ?
<gary fullett> of course not mike
<gary fullett> if u KNEW
<gary fullett> u would be on an island
<gary fullett> How does one know for sure
<gary fullett> U dont
<Greg> thats why u use stops
<gary fullett> ctn I will make one one day
<gary fullett> u will laways have losing trades
<gary fullett> u buy that retest
<mike> so what to do or what to look for
<gary fullett> place the stop under the shakout Hopefully
<Jairo>-><Jairo>
<Joe K> REACTIONS look for
<gary fullett> u look for price action and volume
<gary fullett> example
<George> Gary do you have a picture of yourself on your sight?
<gary fullett> if it goes under the 400 area
<gary fullett> and the volume is Light
<gary fullett> then it is a retest of the sc on light volume
<Joe K> Devotion George, sheer devotion lol
<gary fullett> and is probably a terminal shakoout
<gary fullett> No i dont
<Greg> lol jOE
<gary fullett> but I can tell u what I look like
<George> k
<gary fullett> but no one cares
<gary fullett> lol
<Jairo> Gary's a stud
<Greg> we only love your brain gary
<mike> sometimes it happenedon low volume then volume increase and bottom fell out
<gary fullett> yep
<Joe K> Gary tell em about the guy with stump legg, a runner in the pits !
<gary fullett> and I had an adjustment today greg so my brain is better
<CTN> lol@Greg
<gary fullett> cant do joe
<Greg> excellent
<gary fullett> he has 1 arm
<Joe K> was a riot
<Greg> tough work with one hand
<mike> while I would think it re test
<gary fullett> well mike that happnes
<gary fullett> but generally the terminal shakout iis on lghter volume
<gary fullett> I will tell the story
<gary fullett> at the end of class if interested
<Greg> y
<Greg> very much
<George> I can't wait
<firedog>
<gary fullett> it is funny :)
<skep>
<mike> might not stay to the end
<Joe K> Sharpening of the Downward Thrust then ?
<gary fullett> gsee after
<gary fullett> see after
<Greg> read the archive tomorrow mike
<gary fullett> a sc
<gary fullett> one assumes the downtrend is over
<gary fullett> so any retest of the sc that the market goes under
<gary fullett> it probably a shakeout
<gary fullett> okay I will tell the story now
<gary fullett> then joes q
<gary fullett> okay?
<Greg> goody :)
<skep> k
<Joe K> ok
<firedog> k
<gary fullett> I started my career as a runner
<gary fullett> with lind walkdock
<mike> anybody here trading stocks?
<gary fullett> this will not help u trade
<Greg> y mike
<gary fullett> but it will tell u about the pits
<mike> u?
<gary fullett> there was a runner that had his hand missing
<CTN>
<gary fullett> basically a stump
<gary fullett> well the cattle pit
<J. Livermore>
<gary fullett> traded aout 20 k a day
<gary fullett> and was busy
<mike> to
<gary fullett> especailly the opening and close
<J. Livermore> one arm paper passer?
<gary fullett> the meat traders are basically old times
<Greg>
<gary fullett> LOL
<gary fullett> traders
<Greg> lol Livermore
<gary fullett> so when U have a market order u r supposed to pit it in the brokers face so he can see it is a amrket order
<gary fullett> and then he will take th order from u
<gary fullett> but u may be 3 -4 deep
<gary fullett> well this guy was abiut 5 ft 5
<Joe K> lol
<Greg> lol
<mike>
<gary fullett> and he had a amrket order for 100 cattle to buy
<firedog>
<gary fullett> it was about 10 seconds before the close
<Joe K> And he was eating Pizza
<Joe K> lol
<gary fullett> a mad scramble
<gary fullett> he i running to the pit with the order in his mouth
<gary fullett> trying to avoid peeople
<mike> is that true story?
<mike>
<George>
<Greg>
<Joe K> Good hands with Allstate , right ? lol
<Greg> lol
<gary fullett> he puts the order in his arm pit as he postion himself
<gary fullett> Yes mike
<gary fullett> he reaches the order to the broker
<gary fullett> on the close
<gary fullett> and falls as he hands it to him
<gary fullett> the broker looks at him and says a few choice words to him
<gary fullett> like why in the f..... are u faling
<CTN>
<gary fullett> he didnt know the guy had 1 arm and lost his balance
<gary fullett> and he fell into the pit
<Jairo> ouch
<Joe K> lol
<gary fullett> I guess u had to be there
<Zack>
<gary fullett> but everyone was on the floor laughing
<Greg> did he get his order sold?
<Greg> lol
<gary fullett> LOL
<gary fullett> yeah I think they took it
<Greg> lol
<gary fullett> Nope too late market closed
<Joe K> I think its halarious, 1 good legg, runner in pit
<gary fullett> he got fired LOL
<Joe K> lol
<Greg> lol
<gary fullett> there was a runner with 1 leg
<gary fullett> and they gave him market orders
<Joe K> Not with my order please
<Joe K> lol
<gary fullett> he hopped good
<Greg> lol
<gary fullett> but wasnt as fast as other runners for the most part
<mike> lol
<J. Livermore> did he put the order between his legs?
<gary fullett> but he was a good runner
<Greg> he shouldve had a scooter
<gary fullett> No
<gary fullett> they paid him 1/2 of the reg pay
<Joe K> Gary how many runners for a firm ? And floor brokers ?
<Joe K> Norm ?
<gary fullett> no not true on the pay
<Greg> lol
<skep> lol
<firedog> lol
<gary fullett> the only prob he has was if he got bumped on the way to the pit
<gary fullett> No cane
<Joe K> lol
<Greg> lo;l
<CTN> lol
<gary fullett> depends on the firm
<gary fullett> it is thursday alittle humor
<mike> in time of political correctness this wouldn't be considered laughing matter
<gary fullett> hey I saw a guy bite the ear of another guy
<Joe K> Gary you call the floor, you only talk to runners ?
<mike> LOL
<Greg> lol mike
<Greg> LOL
<Joe K> lol Tyson Floor Broker
<mike> ROFL
<CTN> lmao
<Greg> they are the best Joe
<gary fullett> i talk to a clerk
<Greg> they get it there
<Greg> i am working on paper right now
<Joe K> Agree, never bite the nand that feeds
<Joe K> hand
<Greg> the nice thing about wuckoff principles is that u can
<Greg> trade anything
<Greg> inb the markets
<Greg> with the same principles
<Greg> stocks
<Greg> commodities
<Greg> futures
<Greg> no difference
<Joe K> YES Principles apply to all markets and market conditions, the essense of the beauty
<J. Livermore> Used cars?
<Joe K> of methodology
<George>
<firedog> on the feb cattle, would one be looking for a retest of the low or a percenttage down move like 50%
<Joe K> When you can trade Sept 11th with Wyckoff, you know
<Joe K> lol
<gary fullett> yes firedog
<Greg> dont worry mike \
<mike> well when chart discussion based on monthly coffee I feel little bit out of place
<Greg> I've been here for 2 weeks and
<firedog> does the higher volume in feb ct today signify anthing
<Greg> sometimes feel a little lost myself
<gary fullett> well the flor can be a brutal place
<Zack>
<Joe K> Why Mike ?
<gary fullett> one time a guy had a heart attack and no one stopped trading
<Joe K> We love Coffee
<Joe K> lol
<Greg> lol gary
<gary fullett> hey $$ is money
<gary fullett> I am serious
<Joe K> step over him, how cruel
<gary fullett> they called an ambulance
<gary fullett> and off he went
<gary fullett> they didnt step over him
<Greg> LOL
<gary fullett> around him
<Joe K> lol
<mike> I mostly concentrate on five minutes and one minute charts of NASDAQ stocks
<CTN> firedog...did you mean March CT
<gary fullett> was long on crash day LOL
<mike> don't take me wrong it slight difference
<skep>
<Greg> LOL
<Joe K> 1 min and 5 min, wow, thats hard aint it
<gary fullett> firedog feb what? please
<Joe K> I cant see much on those
<Greg> i cant either
<Joe K> 30 min a little, and 60
<firedog> cattle
<Joe K> 15 maybe minimal
<Joe K> myself
<gary fullett> volume wasnt any great shakes today firedog
<mike> five times today SC and 10 times today shakeout
<Greg> mike, try looking at more time frames that are a little longer term
<Joe K> Wow Mike
<Joe K> See with those smaller ones, you get open space, lots of bleeps
<CTN> volume was larger yesterday in lc than it wad the day before
<gary fullett> happens alot on a small tiem frame
<Joe K> Hard to see 3 bars real good
<Greg> they help give a better idea of what is happening
<Zack>
<Joe K> Gary whats your favorite short term intra day frame ?
<gary fullett> volue today was about 17 k
<gary fullett> yesterday as well
<CTN> how much higher should the volume rise gary
<Joe K> and why
<mike> I didit to require larger risk (2 -- 3 points stop) I don't have luxury of this kind stop
<J. Livermore>
<gary fullett> 10 minute -15 minute chart joe
<gary fullett> shows the best action intraday
<Joe K> Great
<Greg> thanks gary
<gary fullett> what do u mean ctn?
<gary fullett> u r welcome
<Joe K> Best for Point and figure really dont matter does it ?
<Joe K> x's and o's
<CTN> how much doest the volume need to rise from one day to the next on the retest
<gary fullett> P and f
<gary fullett> doesnt have time
<Joe K> yes
<mike> I can't get printed figure charts less than one dollar the box
<Joe K> just illustrates change
<mike> :(
<gary fullett> do them by hand mike
<Zack> If anyone wants a "politically correct" way of saying Merry Christmas and Happy New Year--let me know--I have a dandy for you :)
<Greg> go zack
<Joe K> Shoot Zack
<gary fullett> that is nt a proper q ctn
<mike> don't understand Gerry
<gary fullett> it varies on the trend
<gary fullett> range
<gary fullett> and where u r at on the wyckoff wave
<gary fullett> that cant be answered
<gary fullett> okay zack shhot
<Zack> It's rather long so don't wqant to tie up things here--just let me know your e-mail ad I'll send it to you :)
<Zack> Don't want to waste valuable time for others
<Zack> Unless you want it now
<gary fullett> okay :)
<mike> time to go goodnight
<Greg> night mike
<gary fullett> night mike thanx
<firedog> nite mike
<mike> for what?
<George> Gary when prices test resistance and come down on increasing volume,does this mean supply is in the market?
<gary fullett> for your imput
<gary fullett> yes geoerge
<gary fullett> that is how u tell supply
<gary fullett> by the break with increased volume
<gary fullett> and weak priceac tion
<George> k
<Greg> if price held with the vol we would say that demand came into the market
<mike> unfortunately more orphan than not it not as clear as it looks
User [mike] left forum on Thu Dec 06 22:29:55 EST 2001
<Greg> right gary?
<Greg>
<gary fullett> yep that is how u tell greg
<Greg> thanks
<gary fullett> please releize there is a fight
<gary fullett> betwen bulls and bears everyday
<George> please explain
<gary fullett> and it is resolved
<gary fullett> by price action and volume
<gary fullett> so if volume on the downside overcomes the up side that is supply
<gary fullett> I am george
<gary fullett> when U see ressiatnce
<gary fullett> and the reaction from resisatnce
<gary fullett> is good
<gary fullett> and the volume increases
<gary fullett> this is SUPPLY or selling
<gary fullett> so u tell resistance
<George> it's a miracle
<gary fullett> by the reaction
<gary fullett> and u tell the reaction By price action AND volume
<Zack> Miracle George ??
<firedog>
<George> Gary finally spelled my name right
<Joe K> lol
<Zack> ROFLOL
<CTN> so if the price started going up tomorrow in live cattle and the voulme was going up also, this would be strenght right
<gary fullett> I did george
<Greg> LOL
<gary fullett> lol I am impressed
<gary fullett> that would be correct
<Joe K> i think cattle closes under 6920 feb, top is in near term
<gary fullett> IF the resisatnce was taken out to
<gary fullett> u need to make a higher high
<gary fullett> with volume and good price action ctn
<CTN> right
<gary fullett> if u have good volume
<gary fullett> and fail to take out todays highs
<gary fullett> what does this say?
<J. Livermore> Good night.
User [J. Livermore] left forum on Thu Dec 06 22:35:21 EST 2001
<Greg> no J.
<Joe K> stuffing
<CTN> says it's going down
<Greg> supply
<Greg> is overtaking
<Greg> demand
<gary fullett> right
<Joe K> or supply absorbing demand
<gary fullett> it says that the demand
<gary fullett> is being met by supply
<gary fullett> and if u cant make a higher high with increased volume
<gary fullett> bearish
<gary fullett> joe asked about the shortening of the downward thust
<gary fullett> this is simplair
<gary fullett> if a mrket is going down
<Zack>
<gary fullett> but one day u have decent volume
<gary fullett> and the range is smaller
<gary fullett> this is called a shortining of the downward thrust
<Greg> this is a bullish sign
<gary fullett> yep
<Greg> but we are still in a downtrend
<gary fullett> means that the supply
<gary fullett> that is there is being met by demand
<Greg> so we have to be carefull
<gary fullett> just opposite of the cattle stuff I was talkig about
<gary fullett> red flag
<Greg> because we havent had a SC yet
<CTN>
<Greg> so the trend may not be
<Greg> finished yeet
<Greg> correct?
<gary fullett> I didnt realymention trend
<Greg> sorry
<gary fullett> I was talking about a mrket that was breaking
<gary fullett> and 1 day the range was smaller
<gary fullett> dont be sorry
<Greg> oh, ok
<gary fullett> I didnt want u to get confused
<Greg> thanks
<Joe K> thats kinda like CM shaking a tad too
<Joe K> shak and bake new bulls
<Greg> it is appreciated
<Joe K> or bears
<gary fullett> the cm always wants to confuse ya
<CTN> they are doing one hell of a good job too
<gary fullett> ththat si why u must watch price action and volume
<gary fullett> sometimes u will read it wrong
<gary fullett> sometimes the cm loses money
<gary fullett> and sometimes we do
<gary fullett> yes they do
<Greg> so the shortening of the thrusts can occur in any phase of the market action
<Joe K> Is a Terminal Upthrust, supposed to exceed a BC ?
<gary fullett> yes greg
<gary fullett> yep Joe
<Joe K> ok
User [skep /64.243.70.131] joined forum on Thu Dec 06 22:42:51 EST 2001
<firedog> what time do cattle options expire tomorrow and will this effect the cattle trade the moment after expiratin if during the trading hours?
<skep> idle me
<Greg> ok, suddenly the light bulb goes off and i know where you are
<Greg> thanks Gary
<gary fullett> they expire at the close
<firedog> ok
<gary fullett> and generally they will trade to a strike price that has the most volume
<George> what do you mean gary
<gary fullett> lets say the 69 puts
<gary fullett> have the most open interest
<gary fullett> the market will many times graviate to that area at expiration
<skep>
<gary fullett> okay george?
<George> how can a person find out the open interest on options?
<gary fullett> ask your broker or in the paper like wal street jounral investors daily
<CTN>
<Greg> i have a ? gary
<Joe K> bye time it takes for fil lol
<gary fullett> okay greg
<Greg> basically we have indicators that give us the best times
<Greg> to establish a position
<gary fullett> sure
<Greg> and we have
<Greg> indicators
<Greg> to then tell us
<Greg> how valid
<Greg> and safe those
<Greg> positions
<Greg> are, correct?
<gary fullett> what do u mean best times
<gary fullett> do u mean time frames?
<Greg> the stops are to protect us if we are completely backwards
<gary fullett> right
<Greg> there are certain times in the market that are best
<Greg> to est. a position
<Joe K> Yup
<gary fullett> times as in hours
<Greg> SC, retest,
<gary fullett> or time as in time frames?
<Greg> JOC retest
<Joe K> Times as in general looking and weighing up everything
<Greg> joc
<Greg> etc...
<George> Gary what puts in feb live cattle have the most open interest. you told me to ask my broker lol
<Joe K> Ones close to money
<Joe K> front month
<Zack> Entry spots with lowest risk--is that what you mean Greg?
<Greg> y zack, thanks
<gary fullett> a retest of creek
<gary fullett> or a retest of a break of the ice
<gary fullett> so a JOC
<gary fullett> then a retest of creek
<gary fullett> safest buy
<gary fullett> a break of ice
<gary fullett> then a retest of this area
<gary fullett> safest sell
<Joe K> In Cattle you dont want a Dec Put now though,
<Greg> y gary
<Greg> so we establish our position
<gary fullett> those are the safest
<George> i said feb
<Greg> then watch the market
<gary fullett> if there is such a thoing
<gary fullett> less risk generally
<Greg> to make sure that our
<Zack> Carry on Greg--I'm with you so far
<Greg> position is still valid
<Joe K> You want FEB and as close as you can manage risk, At or near the money, with couple months Theta good
<Greg> based on the market action
<gary fullett> so far george it is the 69 puts
<gary fullett> he was talking about what has the most volume and OI joe
<George> ok
<Joe K> Yes in Puts
<Joe K> At or near the money options do
<Greg> make sence zack?
<Zack> Go for it Greg--I think I know where you are going
<Joe K> most always
<gary fullett> u r right greg
<firedog>
<Joe K> largest open interest
<CTN>
<Joe K> close to money
<Greg> so we take our shot and watch what happens
<Greg> by the market action
<Zack> OK
<gary fullett> yep that is what trading is about :)
<Greg> thanks Gary
<Zack> But wehat about your "exit" plan Greg ??
<Greg> I think this finally makes sence to me
<Zack> So far you have only entered and are wqtching
<Greg> well that is where the FC comes in
<Joe K> It takes alot tying it all together
<Zack> Money is only made when you exit :)
<Greg> lol zack, true
<Greg> that is also determined
<gary fullett> it tells u how far the cause is greg
<Greg> by market actionm
<gary fullett> to a great degree yes
<Joe K> Like me, Ideally, I like an established Range to trade
<Joe K> Ranges offer you very good chances
<Greg> the climax is
<Greg> the best plkace to reverse your
<Joe K> You dont want clammatic grasshopper stuff
<Greg> position if you can
<Joe K> You want safer
<Greg> ok retest joe
<gary fullett> wyckoff works on al tiems frames
<Joe K> Buy a AR or buy a retest ? Trade in a triangle, or trade a Climax
<gary fullett> so lok at the wave and where u r at
<Joe K> considerations abound
<gary fullett> and trade it
<gary fullett> if u look at the monthly
<gary fullett> then larger risk larger rewward
<gary fullett> than intraday
<Greg> and more time gary
<Greg> :)
<skep> How do you trade in a triangle
<gary fullett> yep
<Joe K> From support to resistance and back
<gary fullett> generally it will break out according to the way the trend is
<Greg> triangles are not wyckoff and I dont know them
<gary fullett> me either greg
<Greg> i dont want to know them
<gary fullett> great answer
<Zack> I think a preplanned exit point is one of the most underrated considerations in a trading plan
<Joe K> Most markets are in Triangles a great ammount of time
<skep> o.k. then I don't need to know lol
<Joe K> or consolidation phases
<gary fullett> joe if u r talking tests and retest great
<Greg> great point zack
<Zack> Without it you only have half a plan
<gary fullett> but traingles arent wyckoff lingo
<CTN>
<Joe K> about a third if that, they really break out
<Joe K> on a year basis
<gary fullett> watch the action
<gary fullett> in that area
<gary fullett> and u can tellwhere it will break out
<firedog> would you think the dec BP is set up to jump over the creek?
<gary fullett> good q
<gary fullett> above 14290 yes
<Zack> Thanks Gary--take care everyone and goodnight
<Joe K> Like CD lastnight, last few sessions, look at the Daily chart, I've been trading to 16340, and back to 16360 area, for past 5 trades
<George> good night folks thanks Gary have a safe weekend everyone
User [Zack] left forum on Thu Dec 06 22:59:59 EST 2001
<Greg> before we go zack u have to tell that joke :)
User [George] left forum on Thu Dec 06 23:00:07 EST 2001
<Greg> too late i guess
<Joe K> Im watching Pound, its interesting here
<gary fullett> I will leave u all tonight
<gary fullett> i need to make a call
<skep> thanks Gary
<Jairo> thanks gary. night all
<gary fullett> so have a great safe weekend
<gary fullett> thanx :)
User [gary fullett] left forum on Thu Dec 06 23:00:37 EST 2001